Agreed! Love to see one. Also it was interesting to see some of the minor but positive innovations in the NG, such as antenna placements, etc.dmloftus wrote: ↑Thu Apr 27, 2023 4:47 pmThat's a great document. Is there a similar one for XLS? Or XLT?Rich wrote: ↑Thu Apr 27, 2023 2:04 am This is a great overview of some things you’d want to know:
https://hasslo.org/wp-content/uploads/2 ... V5_2-6.pdf
XLS or NG?
Moderators: Rick, Lance Murray
- rwtucker
- 5 Diamonds Member
- Posts: 1283
- Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:24 pm
- First Name: Rob
- Aircraft Type: DA40
- Aircraft Registration: N831BA
- Airports: KFFZ KEUL
- Has thanked: 100 times
- Been thanked: 110 times
Re: XLS or NG?
- CFIDave
- 5 Diamonds Member
- Posts: 2682
- Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:40 pm
- First Name: Dave
- Aircraft Type: OTHER
- Aircraft Registration: N333GX
- Airports: KJYO Leesburg VA
- Has thanked: 234 times
- Been thanked: 1480 times
Re: XLS or NG?
I've been using that file for DA40NG transition training for years, but it's an older presentation. In particular, there are a few things in this presentation that have changed or I disagree with:
1. They suggest a windmilling engine restart in the air, which Diamond has now discredited since it requires replacement of the engine's timing chain. Instead, use the starter after pitching up to stop the prop. (Of course in a single-engine airplane, intentional engine shut-downs/restarts in flight aren't practiced. But pilots who may later transition from the DA40NG to a Diamond twin need to learn the proper restart procedure.)
2. Diamond shows a DA40NG power setting of 60% on level downwind for flying traffic patterns/circuits; In my experience 50% works better, followed by 20% power when abeam the numbers to begin descent to the runway. (I'm sure other DA40NG pilots have their own opinions on this.)
3. The "Control Surfaces Gust Lock" photo needs to be updated, since the gust lock can only be attached to the CO-PILOT rudder pedals in newer DA40NGs, not the pilot rudder pedals (as with older DA40s).
1. They suggest a windmilling engine restart in the air, which Diamond has now discredited since it requires replacement of the engine's timing chain. Instead, use the starter after pitching up to stop the prop. (Of course in a single-engine airplane, intentional engine shut-downs/restarts in flight aren't practiced. But pilots who may later transition from the DA40NG to a Diamond twin need to learn the proper restart procedure.)
2. Diamond shows a DA40NG power setting of 60% on level downwind for flying traffic patterns/circuits; In my experience 50% works better, followed by 20% power when abeam the numbers to begin descent to the runway. (I'm sure other DA40NG pilots have their own opinions on this.)
3. The "Control Surfaces Gust Lock" photo needs to be updated, since the gust lock can only be attached to the CO-PILOT rudder pedals in newer DA40NGs, not the pilot rudder pedals (as with older DA40s).
Epic Aircraft E1000 GX
Former DA40XLS, DA42-VI, and DA62 owner
ATP, CFI, CFI-I, MEI
Former DA40XLS, DA42-VI, and DA62 owner
ATP, CFI, CFI-I, MEI
- saramse
- 2 Diamonds Member
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:31 am
- First Name: Scott
- Aircraft Type: DA40
- Aircraft Registration: N905PA
- Airports: KDWH
- Has thanked: 18 times
- Been thanked: 24 times
Re: XLS or NG?
Rob - I am also an '08 XLS owner and was considering the purchase of a new 2024 NG, until yesterday. I decided just yesterday for a variety of reasons (see below) to keep my '08 XLS. I have over 1800 hours in my DA40 over the last 5.5 years and have been from Key West to Alaska and most everywhere in between, so I know the Lycoming DA40 very well. My IO-360 has 2250 hrs and is still running strong (~10hrs/qt of oil!), so no plans to overhaul anytime soon. I did test fly a 2019 NG and loved the simplicity of engine operation with the single power lever and steady 500+ fpm climbs right up to 12,000'. I found it to be a little heavier on the nose, but otherwise feels about the same as my XLS, so FUN TO FLY!
1. My primary driver for the NG was an Around-the-world trip, where burning Jet-A is a huge advantage. Unfortunately, I found that I essentially could not get insurance for such a trip (maybe at a $20k+ premium) and they would require me to hire an experienced Ferry Pilot for the overwater portions (another $10k+ cost on each crossing). So, I concluded an Around-the-world trip is not really feasible. Thus the need for a Jet-A powered plane is also not a necessity.
2. My son-in-law is a new Private Pilot. I can easily add him to my existing insurance with the XLS for an additional ~$3000 annual premium, but I learned that the insurance companies do not want to insure new pilots for anything over $500k in hull value, so adding him to a new(ish) NG would be costly at best (I was quoted $11,000+ from a "last resort" insurer). So, another strike against the NG, for me.
So, for now, I will keep my XLS and let my son-in-law also use it (occasionally) to build time. I have been flying 350+ hrs/yr so may order a factory overhauled engine sometime in the coming year, so I will have it ready to swap out on the first signs of needing to do that. But, I loved the simplicity of the diesel engine, the turbo for mountain flying and the AC for hot Houston, so I am sure the time will come eventually for me to buy an NG.
1. My primary driver for the NG was an Around-the-world trip, where burning Jet-A is a huge advantage. Unfortunately, I found that I essentially could not get insurance for such a trip (maybe at a $20k+ premium) and they would require me to hire an experienced Ferry Pilot for the overwater portions (another $10k+ cost on each crossing). So, I concluded an Around-the-world trip is not really feasible. Thus the need for a Jet-A powered plane is also not a necessity.
2. My son-in-law is a new Private Pilot. I can easily add him to my existing insurance with the XLS for an additional ~$3000 annual premium, but I learned that the insurance companies do not want to insure new pilots for anything over $500k in hull value, so adding him to a new(ish) NG would be costly at best (I was quoted $11,000+ from a "last resort" insurer). So, another strike against the NG, for me.
So, for now, I will keep my XLS and let my son-in-law also use it (occasionally) to build time. I have been flying 350+ hrs/yr so may order a factory overhauled engine sometime in the coming year, so I will have it ready to swap out on the first signs of needing to do that. But, I loved the simplicity of the diesel engine, the turbo for mountain flying and the AC for hot Houston, so I am sure the time will come eventually for me to buy an NG.
- michael.g.miller
- 4 Diamonds Member
- Posts: 249
- Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2015 12:52 am
- First Name: Mike
- Aircraft Type: OTHER
- Airports:
- Has thanked: 11 times
- Been thanked: 122 times
Re: XLS or NG?
If I can offer any consolation, having just gotten back from a RTW trip, those insurance costs will be a comparatively small part of the trip cost! In Asia, you need to budget $1.5k for each stop.. 15 stops and you've matched the insurance cost. Not even mentioning the $4k raft and $2k survival suit that are table stakes.saramse wrote: ↑Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:30 pm 1. My primary driver for the NG was an Around-the-world trip, where burning Jet-A is a huge advantage. Unfortunately, I found that I essentially could not get insurance for such a trip (maybe at a $20k+ premium) and they would require me to hire an experienced Ferry Pilot for the overwater portions (another $10k+ cost on each crossing). So, I concluded an Around-the-world trip is not really feasible. Thus the need for a Jet-A powered plane is also not a necessity.
I agree that JET-A is a must for a RTW trip. It's so easy and cheap to get Jet fuel. Just log onto WFS and get a quote with 3 clicks. No need to exchange cash or haggle, just show your release and you're invoiced. Works great in Indonesia, Egypt, Sri Lanka, Taiwan, Maldives.. anywhere. Paid $3.50-$4 in most of the world, the fuel costs were paltry compared to the handling fees! Avgas would be $$$$$ and so much more hassle / planning.
An idea if you want to build up to RTW - consider flying to Europe. I did it twice in my SR22 (before I switched to a DA42). You still need the survival equipment, but no ferry tank or HF required if you do the north route through Iqaluit. And the stops are relatively GA friendly, with (mostly) accessible Avgas everywhere.
-
- 1 Diamond Member
- Posts: 1
- Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2023 7:59 am
- First Name: Ian
- Aircraft Type: DA40NG
- Aircraft Registration: GDPAZ
- Airports: EGNH
Re: XLS or NG?
Rich wrote: ↑Thu Apr 27, 2023 2:04 am This is a great overview of some things you’d want to know:
https://hasslo.org/wp-content/uploads/2 ... V5_2-6.pdf
Fantastic document. Thank you
- rwtucker
- 5 Diamonds Member
- Posts: 1283
- Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:24 pm
- First Name: Rob
- Aircraft Type: DA40
- Aircraft Registration: N831BA
- Airports: KFFZ KEUL
- Has thanked: 100 times
- Been thanked: 110 times
Re: XLS or NG?
I am making a similar decision Scott. I like the refinements of the NG but my decision comes down to the marginal utility of the value added. Most of the NG's refinements are positive but one is negative for me. I enjoy all forms of mechanical work on aircraft, including repairing and rebuilding engines. Over time, I have developed relationships with A&Ps who oversee my work and assist when necessary. Since I have little knowledge of diesel engines, the NG, seems best suited for access to a Diamond certified engine maintenance facility. Other refinements in the NG, such as the G1000® NXi, would be fun to have but, together, do not add up to the significant additional cost.saramse wrote: ↑Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:30 pm Rob - I am also an '08 XLS owner and was considering the purchase of a new 2024 NG, until yesterday. I decided just yesterday for a variety of reasons (see below) to keep my '08 XLS. I have over 1800 hours in my DA40 over the last 5.5 years and have been from Key West to Alaska and most everywhere in between, so I know the Lycoming DA40 very well. My IO-360 has 2250 hrs and is still running strong (~10hrs/qt of oil!), so no plans to overhaul anytime soon. I did test fly a 2019 NG and loved the simplicity of engine operation with the single power lever and steady 500+ fpm climbs right up to 12,000'. I found it to be a little heavier on the nose, but otherwise feels about the same as my XLS, so FUN TO FLY!
1. My primary driver for the NG was an Around-the-world trip, where burning Jet-A is a huge advantage. Unfortunately, I found that I essentially could not get insurance for such a trip (maybe at a $20k+ premium) and they would require me to hire an experienced Ferry Pilot for the overwater portions (another $10k+ cost on each crossing). So, I concluded an Around-the-world trip is not really feasible. Thus the need for a Jet-A powered plane is also not a necessity.
2. My son-in-law is a new Private Pilot. I can easily add him to my existing insurance with the XLS for an additional ~$3000 annual premium, but I learned that the insurance companies do not want to insure new pilots for anything over $500k in hull value, so adding him to a new(ish) NG would be costly at best (I was quoted $11,000+ from a "last resort" insurer). So, another strike against the NG, for me.
So, for now, I will keep my XLS and let my son-in-law also use it (occasionally) to build time. I have been flying 350+ hrs/yr so may order a factory overhauled engine sometime in the coming year, so I will have it ready to swap out on the first signs of needing to do that. But, I loved the simplicity of the diesel engine, the turbo for mountain flying and the AC for hot Houston, so I am sure the time will come eventually for me to buy an NG.
- firedwg1
- 3 Diamonds Member
- Posts: 59
- Joined: Fri May 11, 2018 2:56 am
- First Name: josh
- Aircraft Type: DA40
- Aircraft Registration: DA40XLS
- Airports: KSNA
- Has thanked: 2 times
- Been thanked: 12 times
Re: XLS or NG?
XLS/T is the best fit for most people. Better performance and weight and balance. I would love to see diamond certify the 200HP version of the Lycoming IO360 in their planes.
- CFIDave
- 5 Diamonds Member
- Posts: 2682
- Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:40 pm
- First Name: Dave
- Aircraft Type: OTHER
- Aircraft Registration: N333GX
- Airports: KJYO Leesburg VA
- Has thanked: 234 times
- Been thanked: 1480 times
Re: XLS or NG?
The 200 hp Lycoming IO-360 is a bigger/heavier engine that uses angle valves vs. the DA40's 180 hp straight valve IO-360 M1A. If Diamond put in a bigger engine (which is highly unlikely), they might as well go for the angle valve IO-390 with up to 215 hp.
Epic Aircraft E1000 GX
Former DA40XLS, DA42-VI, and DA62 owner
ATP, CFI, CFI-I, MEI
Former DA40XLS, DA42-VI, and DA62 owner
ATP, CFI, CFI-I, MEI
- Boatguy
- 5 Diamonds Member
- Posts: 1866
- Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:48 am
- First Name: Russ
- Aircraft Type: DA62
- Aircraft Registration: N962M
- Airports: KSTS
- Has thanked: 1366 times
- Been thanked: 1196 times
Re: XLS or NG?
If you live or fly in the western half of the U.S., the NG's turbocharged engine is a real asset.
- gkaplan
- 2 Diamonds Member
- Posts: 46
- Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:29 am
- First Name: Gerry
- Aircraft Type: DA40NG
- Aircraft Registration: N234LA
- Airports: KGED
- Has thanked: 23 times
- Been thanked: 7 times
Re: XLS or NG?
Dave,CFIDave wrote: ↑Fri Apr 28, 2023 1:25 pm I've been using that file for DA40NG transition training for years, but it's an older presentation. In particular, there are a few things in this presentation that have changed or I disagree with:
1. They suggest a windmilling engine restart in the air, which Diamond has now discredited since it requires replacement of the engine's timing chain. Instead, use the starter after pitching up to stop the prop. (Of course in a single-engine airplane, intentional engine shut-downs/restarts in flight aren't practiced. But pilots who may later transition from the DA40NG to a Diamond twin need to learn the proper restart procedure.)
2. Diamond shows a DA40NG power setting of 60% on level downwind for flying traffic patterns/circuits; In my experience 50% works better, followed by 20% power when abeam the numbers to begin descent to the runway. (I'm sure other DA40NG pilots have their own opinions on this.)
3. The "Control Surfaces Gust Lock" photo needs to be updated, since the gust lock can only be attached to the CO-PILOT rudder pedals in newer DA40NGs, not the pilot rudder pedals (as with older DA40s).
Is there anything documented that supports #1 about a windmilling engine? The latest version of their checklist has a "Windmill Engine Start" and a red boxed statement that reads "Do not consider starter assisted restart if propeller has stopped". The AFM further explains that if the propeller has stopped, it is probably a mechanical issue blocking it (since it won't windmill) so the starter shouldn't be used. But where do you see anything that says, "If it is windmilling, you should pitch up to stop the windmill, then use the starter"?
Thanks
Gerry Kaplan
DA40-XLS 40-1160
KGED (Delaware)
DA40-XLS 40-1160
KGED (Delaware)