New MSB about to be issued
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- Karl
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New MSB about to be issued
This will be bad news for some owners.
As it affects the engine I would expect it to be bumped up to AD status pretty quickly, at least in Europe. FAA is a little slower to act .
As it affects the engine I would expect it to be bumped up to AD status pretty quickly, at least in Europe. FAA is a little slower to act .
- haykinson
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Re: New MSB about to be issued
Am I reading this right in that for my engine (group 1) I am now going to be required to perform an oil analysis every 50 hours? And the moment it doesn't pass, the engine needs to be replaced?
Sigh.
Sigh.
- haykinson
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Re: New MSB about to be issued
If they keep the current language, I wonder what all the Part 91 operators in the US will do once past TBO. The way the MSB is worded, it would seem like you could stop doing analysis at TBO... but I'm sure that's not the intent here.
- Boatguy
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Re: New MSB about to be issued
That's how I read it. The oil samples themselves, even every 50hrs, are not a big issue. I have my oil tested by Blackstone at every change. I'm sure you can take the sample and send it off to Blackstone without too much fuss and the expense is minimal.haykinson wrote: Tue Oct 18, 2022 5:05 am Am I reading this right in that for my engine (group 1) I am now going to be required to perform an oil analysis every 50 hours? And the moment it doesn't pass, the engine needs to be replaced?
They clearly have some hard data they are using as the criteria to assess the risk profile of each engine. The serial numbers are not sequential and go back to the first Austro engines - s/n 00011. This problem exists in both Daimler and DAI manufactured blocks. This is possibly the cause/result of some of the engine failures that have occurred, but for which no explanation was forthcoming.
DAI is a slow moving company. It's not a big stretch to think that they had pretty good knowledge of this issue six months ago. So I think the larger question is the warranty coverage. Are these engines only covered for two years? Or do they extend the warranty coverage to 1,800hrs for replacement of an engine necessitated by this issue?
Warranty coverage of the engine for this issue would be some consolation, but it's unlikely they will cover consequential damages. If it takes them a year to provide a replacement, as they have already advised us is the case, then your expenses for hangar, insurance, mortgage payments, etc. while your plane is AOG are not covered.
- gcampbe2
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Re: New MSB about to be issued
Unfortunately I fall into group 3 of this MBO, which means that I'm in for an oil analysis within the next 15 hours, and then on the hook additional oil analysis every 50 hours until one fails or 900 hours is reached, and then engine replacement.
This approach is not reasonable in my opinion. Waiting on baited breath every 50 hours to see if my plane will be grounded doesn't sound like much fun. And then, when that day comes, we are looking at a 12+ month AOG wait for a new engine (likely more given the vastly increased demand this situation is likely to create). I'm still pondering the situation, but I believe that even if my oil analysis comes back below 8 ppm, I will be pushing for an immediately warranty replacement on my 14 month old DA40NG. Hopefully I can then keep flying over the next year or so while I wait for the new engine to arrive, and then have it replaced (avoiding prolonged AOG assuming no readings > 8 ppm in the meantime).
It's a rough situation for the folks at Diamond. It will be interesting to see how they handle the situation, as well as how many engines are showing above 8 ppm in the short term.
This approach is not reasonable in my opinion. Waiting on baited breath every 50 hours to see if my plane will be grounded doesn't sound like much fun. And then, when that day comes, we are looking at a 12+ month AOG wait for a new engine (likely more given the vastly increased demand this situation is likely to create). I'm still pondering the situation, but I believe that even if my oil analysis comes back below 8 ppm, I will be pushing for an immediately warranty replacement on my 14 month old DA40NG. Hopefully I can then keep flying over the next year or so while I wait for the new engine to arrive, and then have it replaced (avoiding prolonged AOG assuming no readings > 8 ppm in the meantime).
It's a rough situation for the folks at Diamond. It will be interesting to see how they handle the situation, as well as how many engines are showing above 8 ppm in the short term.
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Re: New MSB about to be issued
As I read it, the specification as to when the sample has to be taken is not very precise. Taking a sample after 100 hours of run time will have way higher metals than one taken after, say 10 hours of run time. As a comparison, my Lycoming (obviously a different engine, but still having aluminum pistons) generates about 3 PPM of aluminum in a 25 hour run cycle). If I changed the oil every 50 hours, I would expect values of about 6 PPM. 100 hours? I would be over the threshold of 8 PPM.
I have done oil analysis since my airplane was new. I have also had rare samples where an assay (aluminum, iron, chromium) was 25-50 percent higher than my average value. Usually, Blackstone advised to simply watch that value on the next sample (and it always returned to normal for my engine). Blackstone's lab has a good reputation, but obviously there are situations (cold starts in winter, poor air filtration allowing silicon and wear to increase, equipment issues at the lab, etc.) where one could see a factitious elevation, not due to an impending engine problem/failure.
From my prospective as a physician, we often repeat lab tests that give unexpected results before starting a course of therapy that could have significant adverse effects. A final SB with a threshold of two consecutive values above 8 PPM, or a rising aluminum assay with at least one value >= 8PPM might be a more scientifically valid method to detect a real issue with the engine.
Of course, we don't know the back story of this SB, and like Russ, I doubt we will hear anything about the underlying engineering issue. The other thing is that (at least as of now) this is a Service Bulletin and even MSBs are not mandatory (like ADs) for Part 91. If there is a real issue with these engines, DAI will push for an AD to be issued.
I have done oil analysis since my airplane was new. I have also had rare samples where an assay (aluminum, iron, chromium) was 25-50 percent higher than my average value. Usually, Blackstone advised to simply watch that value on the next sample (and it always returned to normal for my engine). Blackstone's lab has a good reputation, but obviously there are situations (cold starts in winter, poor air filtration allowing silicon and wear to increase, equipment issues at the lab, etc.) where one could see a factitious elevation, not due to an impending engine problem/failure.
From my prospective as a physician, we often repeat lab tests that give unexpected results before starting a course of therapy that could have significant adverse effects. A final SB with a threshold of two consecutive values above 8 PPM, or a rising aluminum assay with at least one value >= 8PPM might be a more scientifically valid method to detect a real issue with the engine.
Of course, we don't know the back story of this SB, and like Russ, I doubt we will hear anything about the underlying engineering issue. The other thing is that (at least as of now) this is a Service Bulletin and even MSBs are not mandatory (like ADs) for Part 91. If there is a real issue with these engines, DAI will push for an AD to be issued.
- photoSteveZ
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Re: New MSB about to be issued
The problem I see in cases like yours is warranty applicability. I guess your engines are under warranty now and they will be for some time. What if oil analysis fail after warranty expiry? Who will cover engines replacement?
- Colin
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Re: New MSB about to be issued
If one was under warranty NOW, but knew they were going to test under the limit, how much ground aluminum would you have to stir into your sample to trigger a replacement under warranty?
Colin Summers, PP Multi-Engine IFR, ~3,000hrs
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N972RD DA42 G1000 2.0 s/n 42.AC100 (sold!)
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