New MSB about to be issued
Moderators: Rick, Lance Murray
- hifiaudio2
- 3 Diamonds Member
- Posts: 54
- Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2022 2:29 pm
- First Name: John
- Aircraft Type: DA40NG
- Aircraft Registration: N845PA
- Airports: KFFC
- Has thanked: 1 time
- Been thanked: 16 times
Re: New MSB about to be issued
Yes, it seems Diamond is well aware that we all share concerns around the availability of the replacement engine cores and how fast they can be delivered. They stated on the call that they had already shipped out 70 engine cores to customers with >1100 hour engines in just the period after the MSB was announced. It sounds like this is absolute top priority, as it should be. I think they know that how this is handled can cement Diamond "lifer" customers or create so much bad press that people stay away in droves. So far I am happy with what I hear. If I "fail" an oil analysis and get told its 5 months for an engine core, my tune will change dramatically. As I mentioned above, I am on leaseback and the plane must generate income.
- ememic99
- 5 Diamonds Member
- Posts: 1078
- Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2014 10:31 am
- First Name: Emir
- Aircraft Type: DA42
- Aircraft Registration: SEMAD
- Airports: LDZA LDVA
- Has thanked: 203 times
- Been thanked: 390 times
Re: New MSB about to be issued
It would be absolutely great if these promises are fulfilled and DAI handles this situation as optimistic owners expect.
- Boatguy
- 5 Diamonds Member
- Posts: 1827
- Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:48 am
- First Name: Russ
- Aircraft Type: DA62
- Aircraft Registration: N962M
- Airports: KSTS
- Has thanked: 1327 times
- Been thanked: 1163 times
Re: New MSB about to be issued
I just participated in a video conference with Luca Giaquinta for Lifestyle Aivation customers. I assume that Premier customers either have, or will have, a similar conference.
Out of respect for Diamond/Austro's desire to control communications, I'm not going to disclose too many of the specifics of what I heard, or the answers they gave to questions.
The MSB was the result of investigation into six catastrophic engine failures. To my knowledge, none of those failures resulted in serious injuries or fatalities (I'm sure you'll fact check me on that!).
What I will say is that is was the most professional and candid communication I've ever seen from Diamond/Austro. I believe they are addressing a serious problem with a customer oriented solution. While it is not without pain for any owner affected, and more pain for some than others, the program they have put together is clearly well thought through to address the issue in the short term and the longer term.
I believe they are sincere in attempting to minimize AOG. But it is inescapable that shipping engines around the planet and installing them in a plane at your local shop (which probably already had a backlog) is going to keep some planes from flying for some period of time.
A couple of observations:
- Diamond/Austro's customer service headed by Luca has the potential to significantly change our perception of the company's customer attitude.
- Diamond / Austro read DAN. Participate more; it has an impact. Ideally participation will include constructive suggestions for solutions along with the usual venting of frustration.
- Some details of how this will be implemented (e.g., can owners take their own oil samples?) will not be known for U.S. owners until the FAA issues the AD.
- The piston problem is quantifiable by the oil analysis. The wrist pin problem is not, but is believed to not occur in less than 1,100 hours. The engines affected by either or both are reflected in the groupings and different mitigation programs.
If you are affected, there are certainly unanswered questions, both general, and specific to your situation. Arrange a call between your DSC/IA, and Diamond Customer support (either Canada or Austria as appropriate) to get the best information and your choices, because you do have choices, on how to resolve the MSB.
Out of respect for Diamond/Austro's desire to control communications, I'm not going to disclose too many of the specifics of what I heard, or the answers they gave to questions.
The MSB was the result of investigation into six catastrophic engine failures. To my knowledge, none of those failures resulted in serious injuries or fatalities (I'm sure you'll fact check me on that!).
What I will say is that is was the most professional and candid communication I've ever seen from Diamond/Austro. I believe they are addressing a serious problem with a customer oriented solution. While it is not without pain for any owner affected, and more pain for some than others, the program they have put together is clearly well thought through to address the issue in the short term and the longer term.
I believe they are sincere in attempting to minimize AOG. But it is inescapable that shipping engines around the planet and installing them in a plane at your local shop (which probably already had a backlog) is going to keep some planes from flying for some period of time.
A couple of observations:
- Diamond/Austro's customer service headed by Luca has the potential to significantly change our perception of the company's customer attitude.
- Diamond / Austro read DAN. Participate more; it has an impact. Ideally participation will include constructive suggestions for solutions along with the usual venting of frustration.
- Some details of how this will be implemented (e.g., can owners take their own oil samples?) will not be known for U.S. owners until the FAA issues the AD.
- The piston problem is quantifiable by the oil analysis. The wrist pin problem is not, but is believed to not occur in less than 1,100 hours. The engines affected by either or both are reflected in the groupings and different mitigation programs.
If you are affected, there are certainly unanswered questions, both general, and specific to your situation. Arrange a call between your DSC/IA, and Diamond Customer support (either Canada or Austria as appropriate) to get the best information and your choices, because you do have choices, on how to resolve the MSB.
- ememic99
- 5 Diamonds Member
- Posts: 1078
- Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2014 10:31 am
- First Name: Emir
- Aircraft Type: DA42
- Aircraft Registration: SEMAD
- Airports: LDZA LDVA
- Has thanked: 203 times
- Been thanked: 390 times
- RookieFlyer
- 2 Diamonds Member
- Posts: 44
- Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2021 7:42 am
- First Name: Ken
- Aircraft Type: OTHER
- Aircraft Registration: NIL
- Airports: NZAR
- Has thanked: 214 times
- Been thanked: 16 times
Re: New MSB about to be issued
I seriously doubt there will any long term change in Diamond's customer attitude. They are caught between a rock and a hard place on this issue, and have to be seen to be proactive for their future reputation, plus satisfy the regulating authorities.Boatguy wrote: ↑Thu Nov 03, 2022 8:54 pm
What I will say is that is was the most professional and candid communication I've ever seen from Diamond/Austro. I believe they are addressing a serious problem with a customer oriented solution.
(Snip)
- Diamond/Austro's customer service headed by Luca has the potential to significantly change our perception of the company's customer attitude...
- ememic99
- 5 Diamonds Member
- Posts: 1078
- Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2014 10:31 am
- First Name: Emir
- Aircraft Type: DA42
- Aircraft Registration: SEMAD
- Airports: LDZA LDVA
- Has thanked: 203 times
- Been thanked: 390 times
Re: New MSB about to be issued
Well… nobody has nice customer attitude just for the sake of it. It’s always something behind - legal requirements, competition push, shareholders’ demands… If this is the opportunity for DAI to show the change, let’s see if they can make it.RookieFlyer wrote: ↑Fri Nov 04, 2022 4:45 amI seriously doubt there will any long term change in Diamond's customer attitude. They are caught between a rock and a hard place on this issue, and have to be seen to be proactive for their future reputation, plus satisfy the regulating authorities.Boatguy wrote: ↑Thu Nov 03, 2022 8:54 pm
What I will say is that is was the most professional and candid communication I've ever seen from Diamond/Austro. I believe they are addressing a serious problem with a customer oriented solution.
(Snip)
- Diamond/Austro's customer service headed by Luca has the potential to significantly change our perception of the company's customer attitude...
- photoSteveZ
- 4 Diamonds Member
- Posts: 321
- Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2020 4:10 pm
- First Name: Steve
- Aircraft Type: DA62
- Aircraft Registration: N62DZ
- Airports: KEIK Erie CO
- Has thanked: 387 times
- Been thanked: 226 times
Re: New MSB about to be issued
Agreed, Russ. I participated in the call held the day before yours and came away with the same general sense: Austro/Diamond are putting this issue front and center; the program as laid out is fair and even generous; and Luca seems like the right guy to be in a public-facing role.Boatguy wrote: ↑Thu Nov 03, 2022 8:54 pm .
.
.
What I will say is that is was the most professional and candid communication I've ever seen from Diamond/Austro. I believe they are addressing a serious problem with a customer oriented solution. While it is not without pain for any owner affected, and more pain for some than others, the program they have put together is clearly well thought through to address the issue in the short term and the longer term.
.
.
.
I asked specifically how much leeway we as owners have in deciding precisely when the remediation work will be performed. The answer I got was that, so long as the required oil analyses come back clean, Group 4 owners like me (twin-engine aircraft with engines that may be subject to both failure modes) can delay implementation for as long as 1000 hrs Hobbs time in service. We'll see if that's the way the AD reads when it comes out. Meanwhile, my oil analyses both came back <8ppm, on samples from my first 100hr service in September, so I have no action items until I put another 100hrs on the engines.
- Boatguy
- 5 Diamonds Member
- Posts: 1827
- Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:48 am
- First Name: Russ
- Aircraft Type: DA62
- Aircraft Registration: N962M
- Airports: KSTS
- Has thanked: 1327 times
- Been thanked: 1163 times
Re: New MSB about to be issued
Hobbs or "service" aka "flight"?photoSteveZ wrote: ↑Fri Nov 04, 2022 10:29 pm Group 4 owners like me (twin-engine aircraft with engines that may be subject to both failure modes) can delay implementation for as long as 1000 hrs Hobbs time in service.
- Stephan
- 2 Diamonds Member
- Posts: 14
- Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2021 1:24 pm
- First Name: Stephan
- Aircraft Type: DA40NG
- Aircraft Registration: N275SB
- Airports: KNEW
- Been thanked: 10 times
Re: New MSB about to be issued
I was on the Teams meeting earlier in the week with Premier. I found the presentation to be thorough and professional.
I have 2021 DA40NG with a group three engine, producing well below the 8ppm AL in all (3) of my 100 hour oil samples (I sent extra samples to black stone for my records). This is my first plane so I have no past experience to draw from, but I walked into this purchase with open eyes. Knowing that the engine type and control system is new, excited to be a part of cutting edge technology, but recognizing tweaks and remedial work is possible if not likely.
It seems they're implementing a good action plan, attempting to minimize AOG for everyone. All of those possibly effected but not grounded, start talking to your service center now to estimate when you might want to swap out pistons / cores.
Stephan
I have 2021 DA40NG with a group three engine, producing well below the 8ppm AL in all (3) of my 100 hour oil samples (I sent extra samples to black stone for my records). This is my first plane so I have no past experience to draw from, but I walked into this purchase with open eyes. Knowing that the engine type and control system is new, excited to be a part of cutting edge technology, but recognizing tweaks and remedial work is possible if not likely.
It seems they're implementing a good action plan, attempting to minimize AOG for everyone. All of those possibly effected but not grounded, start talking to your service center now to estimate when you might want to swap out pistons / cores.
Stephan
- lgrennlee
- 2 Diamonds Member
- Posts: 25
- Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2020 2:53 am
- First Name: Logan
- Aircraft Type: DA40
- Aircraft Registration: N248DS
- Airports: KOWD
- Has thanked: 4 times
- Been thanked: 7 times
Re: New MSB about to be issued
Well, well said.Colin wrote: ↑Wed Oct 19, 2022 2:57 pm This is a *very* annoying issue. There is a *set* of pistons of which SOME have been found to be manufactured with some measurements not to specification. Piston diameter itself and the diameter of connection point holes. Not all of a production run, apparently, or not enough of an issue with all the pieces of a production run that it is causing a definite problem. it must have happened over a range of hours because they are insisting on watching the engines for the whole TBO time period.
It's a LOT of engines to watch, but it's not like the crankshaft issue that hit the Bonanza engines a while ago where they just had to replace them immediately. But it certainly feels like a warranty issue. They are hedging their bets so heavily here. On the twins that seems allowable, but if I had a DA40ng with an engine on this list I would be consulting a lawyer and sending DAI back a strongly worded letter making sure they understood their liability here and making sure they retained all internal communications related to the issue.
I understand the difficulty of it. They've probably had three engine stoppages or something like that. They managed to trace it to this set of cylinders, therefore possible list of engines affected. It looks likely that an engine will make it to TBO without any intervention, so pouring tens of thousands of dollars into each engine replacement (even with a pro-rata contribution from the owner) seems horribly wasteful. And on a twin engine stoppage (as seen in a recent video) is certainly something everyone can live with, but in a single... If I were DAI I would just replace all the NGs affected on the DA40's. And then I would be looking for failure modes that meant this was a cause and I'd say we're covering the pro-rata cost of replacement at failure.
I would sure be ramping up production to get a couple hundred engines ready for this.