London Factory PIREP

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nworthin
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London Factory PIREP

Post by nworthin »

I had a business trip near Toronto earlier this week and decided I would combine that with a trip to visit the London, ONT Diamond factory.

Tony Boros very kindly showed me around and answered all my questions. I left extremely impressed by the level of composite expertise.

A few interesting tidbits that came out the meeting:

1. Garmin GWX75 radar is definitely a thing. Discussion was for an upcharge for software unlock to get the 8000 enhancements.

2. Phase III is "coming". For those who say they've heard that before, I can add that I saw the test aircraft (with the extended pitot probe, etc.) for certification and was told it is flying regularly. So, it seemed to me more than just vague promises.

3. I saw several DA62's nearing completion. I think all but one had a custom paint scheme. I meet with Shawn (head of paint shop and good guy) to discuss what I was thinking about for my mid-23 delivery. Some interesting changes in this regard:
  • Shawn had no great concerns regarding my somewhat complicated paint scheme; it will require using stencils for some of it and I was shown an MPP camo aircraft that used stencils in a very elaborate pattern.
  • The colors I was selecting (from a Sherwin Williams kit) did not well match existing certified colors. However, I was told that certification is not a big deal and they would work with me on that.
  • The basic explanation for why there was "resistance" to alternative colors was that the Canadian factory had to use a German paint brand and it's been difficult to get and use. They are switching to a US brand (BASF).
  • The basic explanation for why there was "resistance" to alternative schemes is because the paint shop has limited spray room capacity and the parts need to be done separately. In cases where parts are mated (doors, engine nacelles, etc.) getting painted lines to overlap perfectly is very difficult. They are building a much larger paint room where an entire assembled airframe can be painted in one piece.
4. I realize I should have known this but did not realize that the entire DA62 is carbon fiber and the assembly method is much more advanced than for the DA42. I realized the DA42 had some carbon fiber reinforcements and pretty much assumed (based upon the general look and almost identical operating procedures) that the DA62 was just an "inflated" DA42. Not so at all. It's a very impressive structure when you see it with all the finish portions removed.

5. In a separate post, I asked why the take off procedure, which allows for flaps one or flaps none seemed to recommend the flaps one setting even though the height over obstacles was always better with flaps none (and you are in a better configuration if you lose an engine just after lift off). I got a lot of puzzled looks over that question and they tracked down their test pilot whose reply was, "that's just how they did it." And that no one should read any "preference" into the order they are shown in the AFM.

6. New deliveries are now targeting 2025. Pricing TBD due to uncertainty regarding supply chain and labor inflation (I was told that unemployment in London is very low and finding quality hires is very difficult.)

7. The tragic "non-flying" DA42 accident at Orlando Exec was caused by a very strong microburst that lifted the parked DA42 thirty-five feet (!) into the air, flipped it over and drove it downwards. The cockpit canopy collapsed. Terrible.

I got the sense that the new senior management at Diamond is genuinely listening to the negative comparisons to Cirrus with regard to avionics, customer communications, customization, parts availability, etc. Overall I left the factory feeling very good about things.
Last edited by Chris on Mon Sep 26, 2022 5:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Changed wording from "approach" to "configuration" to avoid confusion
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Flyingferg
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Re: London Factory PIREP

Post by Flyingferg »

Nice report. You would have seen my DA 62 in the final assembly area. It is serial number C049 with red and grey custom paint.
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Bavarian911
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Re: London Factory PIREP

Post by Bavarian911 »

Great factory pirep indeed. I just flew my new to me 2018 DA-62 today for the first time. It is such a joy to fly, particularly to hand fly. In the Cirrus, be it SR or Vision I was engaging the AP as soon as possible. Not so in the DA-62.
If Diamond could "clean up" the cockpit, shorten the checklist, reduce buttons and switches, it would make the DA-62 so much more intuitive and accessible. This together with Autoland would make Diamond a serious contender to Cirrus.
I think it would help Diamond scale up production and sales. This operational "clean up" would be so much more beneficial than chase the latest weather radar version.
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Re: London Factory PIREP

Post by VickersPilot »

Norm, excellent PIREP - thank you.

I keep saying this, the individual people at Diamond are superb and really want to please. Even my after care has been good. Also, as you say, the airframe construction is very impressive, a generational leap forward. I would encourage future owners to visit the factory and appreciate the incredible work of the team in Canada/Austria that goes into making our machines.

The avionics issue is a pain but thankfully ForeFlight compensates for a lot of the weaknesses.
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nworthin
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Re: London Factory PIREP

Post by nworthin »

Bavarian911 wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 11:26 pm Great factory pirep indeed. I just flew my new to me 2018 DA-62 today for the first time. It is such a joy to fly, particularly to hand fly. In the Cirrus, be it SR or Vision I was engaging the AP as soon as possible. Not so in the DA-62.
If Diamond could "clean up" the cockpit, shorten the checklist, reduce buttons and switches, it would make the DA-62 so much more intuitive and accessible. This together with Autoland would make Diamond a serious contender to Cirrus.
I think it would help Diamond scale up production and sales. This operational "clean up" would be so much more beneficial than chase the latest weather radar version.
After a few years of only flying turbine "A to B" aircraft, I wanted something I could use for real (max 500 mi) travel but was FUN to fly. In the turbine world, just like with Cirrus, the flying is always on AP from shortly after take off to short final. I missed the pure joy of flying that I had in my earlier experiences with airplanes. The DA62 fits this dual role beautifully.

I'm a bit confused. What kinds of "clean ups" did you have in mind? I find the DA62 super simple, certainly much more so than the "antique twins" I trained on. The only bits I find kind of weird is the TKS test procedure and I don't like the X-Feed test procedure as it's way too easy, even with careful checklist work, to leave the levers in the wrong position. Otherwise, I like the design in many respects:

1. It's a gear, flaps, flaps plane. I can't imagine anyone managing a gear up landing. You just couldn't slow enough...
2. Power settings like a turbine are great. And, even easier than the PC-12 where there was a transition point where temperatures become the limiting factor vs torque and you had to do a calculation (or read a chart) to set power.

I do think the designers could have done a much better job with storage space.... A warning on low fuel levels with a prompt to start pumping from the AUX tanks might make sense. And, I probably need to read the anti-ice procedures another four of five times; that system maybe could be a bit more straightforward but I don't whether that issue is inherent in the design. This is the first TKS plane I've flown.
Last edited by nworthin on Sat Sep 24, 2022 8:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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nworthin
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Re: London Factory PIREP

Post by nworthin »

I forgot to mention one other item I got clarified.

The AFM mentions that the prop has to be spinning at 1300 RPM or better to feather.

This always made me wonder about a failure of the gear box or torsion dampener which if either got completely balled up and locked the prop hub, then it would be impossible to feather.

The factory confirmed that, if this were to happen (it never has), then yes, feathering not available.
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Re: London Factory PIREP

Post by mfdutra »

nworthin wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 8:38 pm The factory confirmed that, if this were to happen (it never has), then yes, feathering not available.
Other feathering props have failure modes where they would also not feather. So it's a risk we have to live with. It's like an uncontained jet engine failure. It can be really bad.

Thanks so much for the PIREP. I'm C053, expecting delivery in February. I really really really hope they deliver the plane with phase 3 and the GWX 75, which I will pay to unlock the 8000. I've heard from Piper owners that the software unlock was around US$ 10k, which I think it's worth it.
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Re: London Factory PIREP

Post by Boatguy »

nworthin wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 8:38 pm The AFM mentions that the prop has to be spinning at 1300 RPM or better to feather.

This always made me wonder about a failure of the gear box or torsion dampener which if either got completely balled up and locked the prop hub, then it would be impossible to feather.

The factory confirmed that, if this were to happen (it never has), then yes, feathering not available.
I had a governor failure on TO four months ago and we were still able to shutdown/feather.
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Re: London Factory PIREP

Post by MackAttack »

Thanks for the PIREP! I got a long ways down the road on a “semi-custom” paint job for my DA62, taking stock Diamond colors but jazzing up the stripes quite a bit. They agreed to do it - for $75,000 USD (including the 20k for the metallic paint, so a $55k up charge). In the end, I decided to go with the standard orange scheme with the nice stripes you see on the orange plane in their materials. Ultimately concluded that it wasn’t worth $55k to me, versus for example spending $$ for the GWX75 upgrade down the road. I did get SIGNIFICANT resistance to using non-standard paints, and while that might be changing, it has not yet changed (for my 12/22 delivery). But I agree that everyone I’ve talked to at Diamond has tried very hard to be helpful and that is much appreciated. I got invited to the London airshow this month but had to pass because I had a previously scheduled vacation in Europe so I may not be able to get a factory tour anytime soon - glad you were able to do so, and like everyone else who has had the tour, it’s nice to know that you came away impressed with the team. Cheers!
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Re: London Factory PIREP

Post by photoSteveZ »

nworthin wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 5:34 pm 5. In a separate post, I asked why the take off procedure, which allows for flaps one or flaps none seemed to recommend the flaps one approach even though the height over obstacles was always better with flaps none (and you are in a better configuration if you lose an engine just after lift off). I got a lot of puzzled looks over that question and they tracked down their test pilot whose reply was, "that's just how they did it." And that no one should read any "preference" into the order they are shown in the AFM.
Thanks for the pirep, Norm. Having taken the factory tour a few years ago, it's good to hear that things have only continued to improve over time. Five years ago it was already a very impressive production line.

Your discussion of flaps one vs. flaps none introduced what I take to be an unintended ambiguity when you wrote "...recommend the flaps one approach...". Using the word 'approach' here makes it sound like you're talking about landing approaches, not takeoffs. At least, that's how I read it the first time, which left me sorely confused. I think I've got it straight, now.
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