No plans for Diamond GFC 500 autopilot?

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danno2000
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No plans for Diamond GFC 500 autopilot?

Post by danno2000 »

I've read a lot more about the GFC 500 autopilot lately. Owning seemingly one of the only DA40s not to have any autopilot, I was excited at the prospects of potentially being able to upgrade, especially given that I was already thinking about a G5 or GI275 to replace an aging attitude indicator.

So it was annoying to read the list of FAA approved aircraft for installation:
https://www.garmin.com/en-US/p/604257#additional

Cessna yes. Piper yes. Beechcraft, Mooney, Grumman yes. Cirrus of course. Diamond no.

I get it - most of you already have G1000s. But it's still frustrating, and I imagine the same is true for the Cirrus crowd, yet they still managed to get Garmin's attention.

cheers,
dan
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Re: No plans for Diamond GFC 500 autopilot?

Post by gyro3816 »

The only path for your situation is diamond factory upgrade.
That path is $$$
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Re: No plans for Diamond GFC 500 autopilot?

Post by AD1166 »

I offered my airplane to Garmin for the STC, offered to pay for all engineering and installation, as well as hardware. Garmin would essentially have zero to lose but a little time. From speaking with them, if only a handful of us would show interest (just sign up on the website), they could move forward…
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Re: No plans for Diamond GFC 500 autopilot?

Post by chili4way »

I'm skeptical. You have to ask why Diamond stands alone in this regard.

Previous conversations with Garmin (and other two other avionics manufacturers) indicated that they think it is the aircraft manufacturer's responsibility to do the STC flight testing, especially for autopilots. Your recent conversation could suggest differently, but I'd follow up on this specific point before you get your hopes up too high.

"If only a handful would show interest..." reminds me of "bring me the witch's broom" from the Wizard of Oz. Even with your offer to cover the NRE, pay for the hardware, and provide the plane, it would likely take a huge handful of owners to justify the engineering time (from Garmin & Diamond) that could otherwise be spent developing new features for new aircraft to manufacture.

Take care also to understand what's required to install the autopilot servos and any changes to airplane wiring. This likely requires Diamond's engineering resources and parts - and might require composite work that can only be performed at the Diamond Factory (as is the case for retrofitting a GFC700). Don't assume this will cost only the price of the Garmin boxes or that the installation is quick and cheap.

Getting a handle on the total installation cost (even if you underwrite the STC NRE costs) will be extremely difficult. Recruiting your handful without meaningful pricing estimates will be hard.
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Re: No plans for Diamond GFC 500 autopilot?

Post by blsewardjr »

To quantify the market available to Diamond, I recently did a search of the FAA database to identify the number of steam gauge DA40s. Assuming all 2001-03 DA40s are steam gauges, based on serial numbers Diamond built over 300 of them. I responded to Garmin's request for new airplanes to add to the GFC500 list with this information but never heard anything back.

For steam gauge DA40s (vice G1000s, which involve software changes) I'm curious as to how difficult a GFC500 installation would be. The KAP140 servos are located under the seats, not in the wings or somewhere hard to get to. The GFC500 control box could be located in the same space as the KAP140 box. Given that the GFC500 can replace an STEC55X in a SR20/22, I would think the amount of engineering required for the DA40 would be similar.
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Re: No plans for Diamond GFC 500 autopilot?

Post by AD1166 »

At this point, call me desperate! I’m one of those types who always believes if there’s enough will, there’s just got to be a way. But then along came my 2003 DA40 with no A/P. I absolutely love it, paid almost nothing (especially considering today’s market) for it, and had hoped by now there would be an STC, or I could find someone to install my KAP140 that’s in boxes. I use it as a backup for my SR22T, and I’m very impressed with the GFC700, and Garmin avionics in general.

I could be way out in left field, but the GFC500/600 seem to be the “off-the-shelf” equivalents of the 700, and therefore Diamond and Garmin both should have a pretty good understanding of what needs to be done. I would assume the servos and other hardware would be similar.

Can a GFC700 be driven by anything other than the G1000/3000 suites? I’d gladly pay the Diamond factory install one if they’d do it. My plane has dual GTN650Xi’s, which ironically get you some of the goodies (Visual Approaches) that new Diamond buyers are longing for.

This aircraft is just too pristine to sell off to some flight school. I can’t bring myself to do it! So I hold on, hope, and now try…
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Re: No plans for Diamond GFC 500 autopilot?

Post by chili4way »

I've been down the FAA database analysis market assessment path more than once. Here's what that path looks like.
  • many individual owners (plus flying clubs and flight schools) don't care about autopilots, only the lowest acquisition, MX, and operation costs. Steam gauge airplanes are among the most affordable in the market. (Many such owners also don't care about WAAS.)
  • neither Diamond nor Garmin is convinced by the potential market; they might be convinced by hordes (not handfuls) of owners demanding the solution with checks in hand, preferably in a queue outside a Diamond or Garmin Service Center.
  • finding owners to commit sufficiently (show up with a check in hand and not just "be interested") requires having a solution you know you can deliver for an attractive price (for boxes and installation).
  • all component and parts pricing is confidential and extremely sensitive -- impossible to get (and offensive to discuss); even good-faith estimates are considered unrealistic as they can not comprehend the true manufacturers' financial considerations. These might be multiples of what you'd expect.
  • a service facility won't commit to a fixed number of hours for the installation, and owners will always think it should take less time and money. Nobody will pay for the learning curve, and a slow shop will blame the documentation.
  • the scope of certification may be challenging to manage, given the combinations of avionics (esp. navigators and com radios) that can exist in 20-year-old airplanes. Each permutation likely requires more certification, and wherever you draw the line, you'll disappoint some owners. They will tell you that adding and certifying their combination should be trivial. If you require new (or newer) Garmin avionics, you may make the price unaffordable.
  • even if you can pull this together, manufacturers probably have a greater profit margin and incentive to manufacture and sell new airplanes. GAMI measures and ranks aircraft manufacturers on the number of new planes they sell, not the number of upgraded old ones.
If you want to pursue this, (IMHO) your best bet is to find an entrepreneurial service shop or qualified A&P (with access to Garmin and Diamond parts) and discuss the Form 337 approval requirements for what you want to do with your local FSDO. But a custom autopilot and servo installation may exceed what they would be willing to approve under any circumstances for a Part 23 airplane. Go Experimental, and you could have a different story.
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Re: No plans for Diamond GFC 500 autopilot?

Post by jwx96 »

I expressed my interest to Garmin about the GFC500 as a replacement for the KAP 140 about 6 months ago. I never heard back. I told them how many steam gage DA40s there are. Vref has that info on the AOPA site. The KAP140 isn’t bad and will fly ILS and LPV (if you have a 530 with WAAS) approaches including the glide slopes. That’s what I do in IMC most of the time. The holds and course reversals have to be flown by turning the heading bug but that’s no big deal. I hope the GFC500 gets approved in case the KAP140 becomes unsupported, but right now everything is ok, so I would have to look at the cost of an upgrade if it became available now. I’m sure it will be expensive, but everything on an airplane is.
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Re: No plans for Diamond GFC 500 autopilot?

Post by pisymbol »

AD1166 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 2:14 pm At this point, call me desperate! I’m one of those types who always believes if there’s enough will, there’s just got to be a way. But then along came my 2003 DA40 with no A/P. I absolutely love it, paid almost nothing (especially considering today’s market) for it, and had hoped by now there would be an STC, or I could find someone to install my KAP140 that’s in boxes. I use it as a backup for my SR22T, and I’m very impressed with the GFC700, and Garmin avionics in general.

I could be way out in left field, but the GFC500/600 seem to be the “off-the-shelf” equivalents of the 700, and therefore Diamond and Garmin both should have a pretty good understanding of what needs to be done. I would assume the servos and other hardware would be similar.

Can a GFC700 be driven by anything other than the G1000/3000 suites? I’d gladly pay the Diamond factory install one if they’d do it. My plane has dual GTN650Xi’s, which ironically get you some of the goodies (Visual Approaches) that new Diamond buyers are longing for.

This aircraft is just too pristine to sell off to some flight school. I can’t bring myself to do it! So I hold on, hope, and now try…
The biggest issue is if you allow GFC500 APs in the older DAs, that will devalue the 700 models. Plane and simple.
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Re: No plans for Diamond GFC 500 autopilot?

Post by CFIDave »

pisymbol wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 6:39 pmThe biggest issue is if you allow GFC500 APs in the older DAs, that will devalue the 700 models. Plane and simple.
The Garmin autopilots don't compete with each other. The GFC700 is only available as an integral part of G1000/G3000/G5000 flight decks (with autopilot functionality distributed across multifunction LRUs) in new aircraft, whereas the GFC500 is a standalone autopilot for aftermarket installation in used aircraft.

The GFC700 has developed a reputation as "the gold standard" of GA autopilots that's not likely to be devalued.
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