2005 DA40 XL - Can I upgrade to WAAS?

[TimS]

G3X is experimental, and does not meet certification standards that the G1000 followed. The standard G1000 is built under requires basically every line of code to extensively managed/mapped and considered.

Now the FAA, has through a new program in the past few years allowed experimental avionics to get certified on specific airframes after extensive testing, and basically treats the whole avionics platform as a block box and is focused on the result. This is significantly cheaper for everyone involved.

From a while back I discussed doing so with Garmin on the Cirrus. Basically, Garmin said Cirrus was not interested, and they would not consider it unless Cirrus was interested. If you want to go with experimental avionics and lower your longer term avionics costs, you likely would need to discuss working a program with Dynon.

Tim

[mhoran]

Indeed, I think the move towards allowing experimental avionics in certified airplanes is a great step forward. Fortunately, the DA40 is already on the AML for the G3X. Unfortunately the same is not true for the GFC 500. My hope is that this situation changes and more options are available once I have to deal with lack of support for the legacy G1000.

[Boatguy]

Well, YUCK - this does not bode well for my long term ownership of this airplane.

The FAA database says you have a 2010 DA40. Is sounds like you have a GIA63, a non-WAAS GPS.

What autopilot is in your plane?

I actually own multiple airplanes. The one in question is N204SG, a 2005 DA40. It has a G1000 with KAP140 autopilot as they were built at that time. The one in the FAA database was the first one my husband and I bought. We run Odyssey Aero Club and lease our airplanes to it.

Before you sell, I would consider:

1) Diamond claims the 63W upgrade program is still active. I would contact Diamond support and ask for the upgrade and see what they tell you.

2) The DA40 airframe has a useful life of 75-100yrs. A DA40 with an NXi panel will probably be valued in the market similarly to a new DA40, less an adjustment for engine time until TBO. I think the NXi/GFC700 upgrade cost will be fully recovered. In fact, the value may be more than recovered because the cost of the airframe has risen dramatically since you (and others) purchased their airplane. None the less, there is a cash flow issue. If you're running the plane as a business, then the expense will be either fully deductible, or increase your depreciation, depending on how aggressively you do your tax returns. FWIW, at some point the rental value of a non-WAAS KAP140 plane is going to diminish significantly.

[Boatguy]

And to the OP, I think it's worth keeping an eye out for used GIA-63W units and not giving up hope. Hopefully when we do reach end of life for the legacy G1000 there will be more available options. Given the legacy G1000 DA40s have the G1000 installed via STC, swapping it out is definitely possible, albeit for unknown cost.

To the NG / NXi owners out there, I'd just like to point out that this situation probably won't be any different for the NXi. We don't yet know how long legacy G1000 support will run for, but once we do, NXi owners should take notice.

Garmin has refused to certify 63Ws obtained from other than Diamond or Garmin. An IA cannot sign off on uncertified units.

Totally agree about NXi as that is the case with all avionics. We would all be more comfortable if Garmin and OEMs (not just Diamond) would confront the "certified with integrated avionics" that have a 20yr life and are installed in an airframe with a 75yr life.

[mhoran]

Garmin has refused to certify 63Ws obtained from other than Diamond or Garmin. An IA cannot sign off on uncertified units.

Totally agree about NXi as that is the case with all avionics. We would all be more comfortable if Garmin and OEMs (not just Diamond) would confront the "certified with integrated avionics" that have a 20yr life and are installed in an airframe with a 75yr life.

This is not true. There is a story on the forums of this happening to one individual, but I had no such issue. One GIA I had installed has been replaced by Garmin twice. I verified that there would be no issues before purchasing the used units. Also, there is no requirement that the units be "recertified" in the US. The IA I had install the used units (at a service center authorized by Diamond) signed off without issue.

[Chris]

"G1000 to G1000 NXi Upgrade: Bring New Capabilities to Your Cockpit" will begin on:
Thu, Aug 4, 2022 10:00 AM - 11:00 AM CDT

I attended this today. They spent a fair bit of time talking about how pretty the new fonts and display boxes were, but they also showed off new features as well, some of which I wasn't familiar with yet.

Apparently multiple people were asking about Diamond and Cirrus upgrade options in the Q&A back-channel, and they made a point to say that it was up to Diamond and Cirrus to make that possible due to how the certifications were done. They also made the point that Cirrus Perspective[+] is an extention of the G1000[NXi] which probably further complicates things.

For Cessna 172/182/206 the quoted upgrade price "starts at 24,995" and requires that the aircraft be already equipped with GIA63W. It's not clear to me if that makes the upgrade similar to "NXi Phase 1" or if they swap the GIA63W for a GIA64. For a Meridian, the cost increases to $53k. IIRC, they said that upgrades can be done by dealer authorized service centers for all supported aircraft except the Citation Mustang, which must be upgraded at Textron.

I also asked about legacy autopilots and got a response that NXi upgrades would only be possible for GFC700 aircraft. Note that this was in the context of Cessna, Bonanza, etc, since they weren't really covering Diamond at all.

Full list of aircraft which can be relatively easily upgraded from G1000 to G1000 Nxi at this time: Cessna 172/182/206, Beech Bonanza G36, Beech Baron G58, Piper Meridian PA-46-500TP, King Air C90/B200/300/350, Phenom 100/300, TBM 700/850/900, Citation Mustang.

[mhoran]

Thanks for the report! Unfortunately it seems the Diamond/Garmin finger pointing continues, with no real movement on an upgrade path for the DA40.

For Cessna 172/182/206 the quoted upgrade price "starts at 24,995" and requires that the aircraft be already equipped with GIA63W. It's not clear to me if that makes the upgrade similar to "NXi Phase 1" or if they swap the GIA63W for a GIA64. For a Meridian, the cost increases to $53k. IIRC, they said that upgrades can be done by dealer authorized service centers for all supported aircraft except the Citation Mustang, which must be upgraded at Textron.

Yes, this was hashed out in another one of the upgrade threads, but the version of NXi certified for Cessna requires the GIA-63W, not GIA-64. It's unclear what features may / may not be included in this version, as compared to GIA-64 models. In another thread we also learned that it was essentially Diamond's decision to require the GIA-64 for the NXi upgrade, not Garmin's. I believe this is likely due to software/certification rather than any hard technical requirement.

[chili4way]

I got this reply when I asked about the continued support of the legacy G1000 system.

how-long.png (19.66 KiB) Viewed 388 times

Interesting that neither the GNS430 nor G1000 have WAAS upgrades available. It occurs to me that when planes upgrade to NXI, some number of the replaced legacy LRUs could provide resources for continuing legacy support -- and possibly legacy WAAS upgrades.

[Boatguy]

Garmin has refused to certify 63Ws obtained from other than Diamond or Garmin. An IA cannot sign off on uncertified units.

Totally agree about NXi as that is the case with all avionics. We would all be more comfortable if Garmin and OEMs (not just Diamond) would confront the "certified with integrated avionics" that have a 20yr life and are installed in an airframe with a 75yr life.

This is not true. There is a story on the forums of this happening to one individual, but I had no such issue. One GIA I had installed has been replaced by Garmin twice. I verified that there would be no issues before purchasing the used units. Also, there is no requirement that the units be "recertified" in the US. The IA I had install the used units (at a service center authorized by Diamond) signed off without issue.

That's good to hear!

[Boatguy]

"G1000 to G1000 NXi Upgrade: Bring New Capabilities to Your Cockpit" will begin on:
Thu, Aug 4, 2022 10:00 AM - 11:00 AM CDT

For Cessna 172/182/206 the quoted upgrade price "starts at 24,995" and requires that the aircraft be already equipped with GIA63W. It's not clear to me if that makes the upgrade similar to "NXi Phase 1" or if they swap the GIA63W for a GIA64.

I'm pretty sure that's the case. It's just new displays, which also have embedded processors. None of the LRUs are upgraded for that price.