2005 DA40 XL - Can I upgrade to WAAS?

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Boatguy
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Re: 2005 DA40 XL - Can I upgrade to WAAS?

Post by Boatguy »

chili4way wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 12:53 am The Avidyne Cirrus aircraft were "modular" panels, like the steam gauge DA40s. Any element can be updated if an STC supports it, and there is no need to update and certify a system-level software component. Cirrus had the Avidyne Entegra displays, but it was not an integrated solution like the Cirrus Perspective "legacy" G1000 system. Cirrus did differently by waiting for the "complete system" (WAAS + GFC700) to be available before introducing their integrated avionics solution. Diamond and Cessna were early G1000 adopters, introducing non-WAAS systems from 2004-2007 before the DA40-XLS in 2008. An apples-to-apples comparison is a Perspective/XLS upgrade to Perspective+/"full" NXI offering (GIA64s+GMA1360+GFC700). I don't believe Cessna (or Garmin) offers this complete solution yet.

Here's why the "full NXI" overhaul is an appropriate solution to reference across manufacturers. As well-known, the legacy G1000 LRUs/hardware are no longer in production. Sooner or later (and hopefully later for current legacy owners), all legacy systems will need to have their avionics overhauled. The LRUs won't be repairable. When this will happen is a difficult question to answer.

Upgrading the GDU1040s to 1050s and calling it an "NXI system" evades this concern, even as it provides new features and better performance. And this Cessna solution is only available to existing WAAS/GDU63W airplanes. The Cessna 172s with the equivalent avionics to the 2004-2006 non-WAAS DA40-180s cannot be upgraded to "NXI" with the current incremental solution.

The unfortunate thing for non-WAAS legacy owners' aircraft was that the value of WAAS (i.e., availability of LPV approaches) didn't manifest until after the GIA63W was no longer in production. When it was available, it was hard to justify financially.

If WAAS is essential and immediately valuable to a legacy owner, the "half-price" cost of adding WAAS will be worth the effort. If not, starting to save for that eventual avionics overhaul is a good idea. It will still cost less than a new airplane.
Your original point was that Diamond doesn't offer an NXi upgrade, but neither does Cirrus, as though Cirrus' lack of an offering vindicated Diamond. But Cirrus and Diamond owners are not in comparable situations so it's a false equivalency.

Cirrus:
- Avidyne Entegra owners can upgrade to Vantage, and also upgrade their Garmin or Avidyne navigators and comms as needed. They need nothing from Cirrus because Avidyne and Garmin have invested in the STCs.

- Perspective owners all have WAAS and GFC700. It's true that there is no identified path to Perspective+, but also much less necessity since they can fly LPVs with an excellent autopilot. The day when 63Ws can no longer be serviced is not imminent.

Diamond:
- There are a significant number of G1000, non-WAAS, KAP140 owners with no path forward. They cannot fly LPVs and they have an older autopilot who's useful life is most certainly shorter than the GFC700.

The FAA's stated policy is to phase out VORs and ILSs at Delta and non-towered airports, substituting RNAV approaches which don't require maintenance of land based navigation systems. They have been implementing that policy for quite awhile and I have seen VOR and ILS approaches disappear from smaller Northern California airports. That means an airport where a Diamond could fly the ILS to 200' minimums, now must fly an LNAV with higher minimums.

Diamond did announce a program to provide the WAAS upgrade, but the "half price" offer is a mirage since the 63Ws aren't available. The program was dependent on Diamond owners upgrading from NXi Phase 1 to Phase 2 (Diamond's nomenclature), and swapping their 63W's for 64s. Those owners should do that, because Diamond has told us that Phase 1 is a dead end with no upgrade path. But the reality is that the volume of those upgrades, as was anticipated before Diamond announced the program, is insufficient to meet the demand for 63Ws. Diamond and Garmin were and are both well aware of this.

In the absence of any further supply of 63Ws from Garmin, those Diamond owners must leap all the way to NXi Phase 2 which is a certified configuration for Lycoming and Austro powered Diamond aircraft. It's not just an "appropriate solution", it is the only solution that can actually be implemented. That leap is probably $150K (warning: just a guess) and I think Diamond would be happy to do it at the factory; but there are no certified work instructions to enable the upgrade to be done at a DSC. It is the "only" solution because Garmin has refused to certify 63Ws that owners have located on their own from salvaged planes, eBay etc.

TDI powered Diamond's with a GIA63 and KAP140 are simply orphaned as there is no NXi certified configuration for those aircraft and Garmin isn't going to invest in the STC.
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Re: 2005 DA40 XL - Can I upgrade to WAAS?

Post by JanSq »

Well, YUCK - this does not bode well for my long term ownership of this airplane.
Thanks for the input everyone. I had my suspicions

Anyone want to buy an airplane?
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Re: 2005 DA40 XL - Can I upgrade to WAAS?

Post by chili4way »

Two different problem statements. 1) how can I upgrade my non-WAAS legacy G1000 2004-2007 airplane to have WAAS? 2) what will eventually use to overhaul my legacy G1000 system when Garmin no longer supports it?

Cirrus doesn't have the G1000 WAAS upgrade problem because all their G1000 systems have WAAS and the GFC700 AP. Diamond and Cessna have this problem, which is further complicated because of the KAP140 autopilot in most of those airplanes. The program Diamond announced in 2020 is the only game in town, and it's dependent on NXI phase 1 to phase 2 upgrades. Cessna owners have no such option.

All Garmin legacy G1000 aircraft (Diamond, Cessna, Cirrus, Piper, etc.) will eventually require an avionics overhaul. I wouldn't argue against the $150K estimate for non-WAAS/KAP140 airplanes getting a complete upgrade to G1000 NXI. XL and XLS planes that already have the GFC700 should cost less. However, it's more complicated than just a plug-and-play "LRU swap." Garmin is the lynchpin of this situation. It's an industry-wide issue regarding integrated avionics.

Diamond and Garmin will need to address the TDI-powered legacy G1000 aircraft. There are too many of them to ignore, particularly in Europe. (There are 84 registered in the US.)

If I owned a legacy G1000 Diamond, I wouldn't be urgently concerned about long-term ownership. I'd start building a reserve for an eventual avionics overhaul, just like I do for my engine. The precise timing will be "on condition."
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Re: 2005 DA40 XL - Can I upgrade to WAAS?

Post by chili4way »

"G1000 to G1000 NXi Upgrade: Bring New Capabilities to Your Cockpit" will begin on:
Thu, Aug 4, 2022 10:00 AM - 11:00 AM CDT
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Re: 2005 DA40 XL - Can I upgrade to WAAS?

Post by Chris »

chili4way wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 3:00 pm "G1000 to G1000 NXi Upgrade: Bring New Capabilities to Your Cockpit" will begin on:
Thu, Aug 4, 2022 10:00 AM - 11:00 AM CDT
Link below for anybody looking for this. I doubt there will anything Diamond-specfic, unless there's a Q & A and somebody asks about it.

https://www.garmin.com/en-US/aviation/w ... /americas/
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Re: 2005 DA40 XL - Can I upgrade to WAAS?

Post by Boatguy »

JanSq wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 1:43 pm Well, YUCK - this does not bode well for my long term ownership of this airplane.
The FAA database says you have a 2010 DA40. Is sounds like you have a GIA63, a non-WAAS GPS.

What autopilot is in your plane?
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Re: 2005 DA40 XL - Can I upgrade to WAAS?

Post by mhoran »

chili4way wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 2:40 pm If I owned a legacy G1000 Diamond, I wouldn't be urgently concerned about long-term ownership. I'd start building a reserve for an eventual avionics overhaul, just like I do for my engine. The precise timing will be "on condition."
It's certainly easy to say this in hindsight, but the point is that owners of these legacy airplanes (myself included) bought into the market at a very different time. For a KAP140 airplane, the cost of an NXi upgrade may well be equal to or more than what the owner originally paid for the plane. That's a tough pill to swallow. We didn't start saving for new avionics when we bought our planes like we did for our engines. And these are simple single engine airplanes. For the cost of an NXi upgrade it might make more financial sense to sell the plane and let someone else deal with the future problem, investing the proceeds in another airplane with modern (non-integrated) avionics.

Personally, I'd be very hesitant to purchase another airplane with integrated avionics. This situation has just not played out well. The G3X is better than the G1000 (legacy and NXi), at a fraction of the cost. I'd look to rip out the entire G1000 versus upgrade to another platform that would require complete replacement when Garmin can no longer service the units.

I still think we're a long ways off from Garmin discontinuing support for the legacy G1000. And to the OP, I think it's worth keeping an eye out for used GIA-63W units and not giving up hope. Hopefully when we do reach end of life for the legacy G1000 there will be more available options. Given the legacy G1000 DA40s have the G1000 installed via STC, swapping it out is definitely possible, albeit for unknown cost.

To the NG / NXi owners out there, I'd just like to point out that this situation probably won't be any different for the NXi. We don't yet know how long legacy G1000 support will run for, but once we do, NXi owners should take notice.
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Re: 2005 DA40 XL - Can I upgrade to WAAS?

Post by JanSq »

Boatguy wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 6:09 pm
JanSq wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 1:43 pm Well, YUCK - this does not bode well for my long term ownership of this airplane.
The FAA database says you have a 2010 DA40. Is sounds like you have a GIA63, a non-WAAS GPS.

What autopilot is in your plane?
I actually own multiple airplanes. The one in question is N204SG, a 2005 DA40. It has a G1000 with KAP140 autopilot as they were built at that time. The one in the FAA database was the first one my husband and I bought. We run Odyssey Aero Club and lease our airplanes to it.
Jan
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Re: 2005 DA40 XL - Can I upgrade to WAAS?

Post by TimS »

Just a data point for comparison.
A number of years ago, Avidyne offered the R9 upgrade for Cirrus. This was a complete overhaul and replacement/upgrade of the avionics.
They did not get many buyers.
If you instead did a piecemeal upgrade of the same plane using GTN, G500... your total cost was actually higher than the total cost of the R9 upgrade. Yet it has proven to be more popular.

Same here, look at the old Diamond price list for the DA-42 to NG upgrades. Doing it piecemeal costs more.

Going for piecemeal upgrades costs the owner more, likely costs Diamond/Garmin more as more configurations are supported. Yet that is what owners want....

As for the price of avionics versus the plane. I believe that has been true with the engine/prop and for avionics since the late mid to late 90s. The problem is many owners in the early aughts were likely still thinking of airplane prices from the 80s/90s where the plane kept increasing in value; especially compared to the avionics and engines.

Tim
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Re: 2005 DA40 XL - Can I upgrade to WAAS?

Post by mhoran »

TimS wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:41 pm As for the price of avionics versus the plane. I believe that has been true with the engine/prop and for avionics since the late mid to late 90s. The problem is many owners in the early aughts were likely still thinking of airplane prices from the 80s/90s where the plane kept increasing in value; especially compared to the avionics and engines.
Tim
The cost of the G1000 in particular is out of line with the rest of the plane, and I don't totally understand why. You can get a dual 10.6" G3X for $22k. The GFC 500 is $8k. You still need a transponder, but you can probably reuse your GTX-345R. Installation costs aside (which aren't included in the Diamond estimate for NXi upgrade) that's a far cry from $100-150k as quoted in 2019. My point is the modular avionics are more expensive in general than the G1000. The G3X does everything my legacy G1000 does and more, and can be installed and maintained for much less.
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