DA40NG Coolant Leak and ECU A Failure

Discussions specific to Austro engines

Moderators: Rick, Lance Murray

User avatar
Colin
5 Diamonds Member
5 Diamonds Member
Posts: 2006
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2010 8:37 pm
First Name: Colin
Aircraft Type: DA42
Aircraft Registration: N972RD
Airports: KFHR
Has thanked: 319 times
Been thanked: 527 times

Re: DA40NG Coolant Leak and ECU A Failure

Post by Colin »

I do not recall if the engine software was updated during that problem. If it was a known solution then I would bet my mechanic at the time knew of it and probably did it.
Colin Summers, PP Multi-Engine IFR, ~3,000hrs
colin@mightycheese.com * send email rather than PM
http://www.flyingsummers.com
N972RD DA42 G1000 2.0 s/n 42.AC100 (sold!)
N971RD DA40 G1000 s/n 40.508 (traded)
User avatar
ultraturtle
4 Diamonds Member
4 Diamonds Member
Posts: 300
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:46 pm
First Name: Rob
Aircraft Type: DA62
Aircraft Registration: N62KZ
Airports: KAAF
Has thanked: 64 times
Been thanked: 180 times

Re: DA40NG Coolant Leak and ECU A Failure

Post by ultraturtle »

krellis wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:45 am
I feel for you guys with the Austros - replacing gearboxes, pumps, injectors, ECU faults, coolant leaks. Yeah they run smooth and sip Jet-A, but I really don't see the advantages when you spend so much on repairs and suffer the downtime.

Give me a Lycoming IO-360-M1B anytime (neighbor has 3500+ hours on his)...
I feel for you guys with the Lycomings probably more than you do for us Austro operators. Lycoming IO360s fail inflight at a predictable rate of once every 1,100 hours or so (seehttps://www.avweb.com/flight-safety/acc ... avoidable/ .

While Austro engine operators cannot quite leap up to the PT-6 operator level of reliability smugness, they're not far off. If you consider the PT-6 to be several orders of magnitude better (1 failure per 300,000 hours), you should probably consider the Austro to be somewhere around a half order of magnitude better considering its awesome maintenance protocol. It's almost impossible to determine the failure rate of Austros simply because they don't generally quit on their own often enough to be statistically significant. Most inflight shutdowns have been pilot initiated - an issue of operator error due to poor switch design and placement.

Super, super happy to engage in the maintenance of a thoroughly modern engine that has undergone 66 years of evolution since the essentially frozen design of the lycoming O-360 airboat engine (okay, I'll give credit for the single upgrade in that 66 year period - fuel injection to create the IO-360). I've never been down for more than an hour or two outside of annual maintenance for my Austros operating in twins (DA42-VI and DA62) for the past 5 years. The really incredible fact is that my cost to overhaul my Austro engine is pretty much exactly the same as it will cost to overhaul your IO-360 - about %6 of what it might cost to overhaul the next most reliable engine.
User avatar
Rich
5 Diamonds Member
5 Diamonds Member
Posts: 4592
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:40 pm
First Name: Rich
Aircraft Type: DA40
Aircraft Registration: N40XE
Airports: S39 Prineville OR
Has thanked: 145 times
Been thanked: 1180 times

Re: DA40NG Coolant Leak and ECU A Failure

Post by Rich »

ultraturtle wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 9:39 pm
I feel for you guys with the Lycomings probably more than you do for us Austro operators. Lycoming IO360s fail inflight at a predictable rate of once every 1,100 hours or so (seehttps://www.avweb.com/flight-safety/acc ... avoidable/ .
You might want to reread this article. It does not say that at all.
2002 DA40-180: MT, PowerFlow, 530W/430W, KAP140, ext. baggage, 1090 ES out, 2646 MTOW, 40gal., Surefly, Flightstream 210, Orion 600 LED, XeVision, Aspen E5
User avatar
ememic99
5 Diamonds Member
5 Diamonds Member
Posts: 1078
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2014 10:31 am
First Name: Emir
Aircraft Type: DA42
Aircraft Registration: SEMAD
Airports: LDZA LDVA
Has thanked: 203 times
Been thanked: 390 times

Re: DA40NG Coolant Leak and ECU A Failure

Post by ememic99 »

ultraturtle wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 9:39 pm It's almost impossible to determine the failure rate of Austros simply because they don't generally quit on their own often enough to be statistically significant.
Really? Then you obviously don't follow latest MSB/AD related to Austro issues.
ultraturtle wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 9:39 pm Most inflight shutdowns have been pilot initiated - an issue of operator error due to poor switch design and placement.
Where did you find this data? Please share the source.
ultraturtle wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 9:39 pm The really incredible fact is that my cost to overhaul my Austro engine is pretty much exactly the same as it will cost to overhaul your IO-360 - about %6 of what it might cost to overhaul the next most reliable engine.
That's really funny. Please share the source of IO-360 vs Austro overhaul pricing. But don't quote DAI sales story from 2010 about $20k - try to find something more recent.
User avatar
krellis
4 Diamonds Member
4 Diamonds Member
Posts: 339
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 10:42 am
First Name: Keith
Aircraft Type: OTHER
Aircraft Registration: N853DF
Airports: GA04
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 63 times

Re: DA40NG Coolant Leak and ECU A Failure

Post by krellis »

ultraturtle wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 9:39 pm
I feel for you guys with the Lycomings probably more than you do for us Austro operators. Lycoming IO360s fail inflight at a predictable rate of once every 1,100 hours or so (seehttps://www.avweb.com/flight-safety/acc ... avoidable/ .
Sorry, but I think your math is wildly inaccurate. I'll say it again - I would take an IO-360 L or M series any day over an Austro. Maybe one day Austro will deliver a similar reliability, but right now I don't think they are anywhere close.
User avatar
Rich
5 Diamonds Member
5 Diamonds Member
Posts: 4592
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:40 pm
First Name: Rich
Aircraft Type: DA40
Aircraft Registration: N40XE
Airports: S39 Prineville OR
Has thanked: 145 times
Been thanked: 1180 times

Re: DA40NG Coolant Leak and ECU A Failure

Post by Rich »

krellis wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 11:46 pm
ultraturtle wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 9:39 pm
I feel for you guys with the Lycomings probably more than you do for us Austro operators. Lycoming IO360s fail inflight at a predictable rate of once every 1,100 hours or so (seehttps://www.avweb.com/flight-safety/acc ... avoidable/ .
Sorry, but I think your math is wildly inaccurate. I'll say it again - I would take an IO-360 L or M series any day over an Austro. Maybe one day Austro will deliver a similar reliability, but right now I don't think they are anywhere close.
The number was so preposterous (It implies C-172's alone falling out of the sky in droves) I had to read the article in detail.

In reality what it says:
- Lycomings had 1 inflight engine failure accident per 1100 engines (not hours) over a five-year period, out of almost 100,000 engines flying.
- The article does not break things down by engine model, so there really is no number for the IO-360 in particular.
- If one were to guess at a mere 100 hours (this number admittedly pulled from the air) per year over 5 years for those 96,000 Lycomings we're looking at more like 1.9 inflight Lycoming engine accidents per 1,000,000 hours.

I'll just say this: In 2500+ hours over 55+ years flying behind (mostly) Lycoming engines I have never had an engine failure in same. Total problems:
- One Slick mag failure in a Continental-powered Ercoupe. Engine roughness and likely partial-power loss, though not really significant. We continued to the nearest airport and landed without incident.
- Sudden inflight roughness in a C-470 powered 1958 Skylane resulting in return to the airport. Possible partial power loss, though undetectable in flight. Landed without incident. Examination determined unapproved valve guides installed in a recent overhaul by Jimmy-Bob whoever in Georgia prior to sale.
2002 DA40-180: MT, PowerFlow, 530W/430W, KAP140, ext. baggage, 1090 ES out, 2646 MTOW, 40gal., Surefly, Flightstream 210, Orion 600 LED, XeVision, Aspen E5
User avatar
Colin
5 Diamonds Member
5 Diamonds Member
Posts: 2006
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2010 8:37 pm
First Name: Colin
Aircraft Type: DA42
Aircraft Registration: N972RD
Airports: KFHR
Has thanked: 319 times
Been thanked: 527 times

Re: DA40NG Coolant Leak and ECU A Failure

Post by Colin »

Also, those are in-flight engine failure ACCIDENTS. That means there can be any number of in-flight engine failures without an accident that they are not counting. Those are more of what I am interested in, since *I* am the weak link the moment the engine fails.

1,800 hours on our IO-360. One electrical system failure on short final, undiagnosed issue. One alternator failure at 9,500 within gliding distance of Albany, landed without incident losing radios as we turned onto the taxiway. I can't think of any others off the top of my head.
Colin Summers, PP Multi-Engine IFR, ~3,000hrs
colin@mightycheese.com * send email rather than PM
http://www.flyingsummers.com
N972RD DA42 G1000 2.0 s/n 42.AC100 (sold!)
N971RD DA40 G1000 s/n 40.508 (traded)
User avatar
Rich
5 Diamonds Member
5 Diamonds Member
Posts: 4592
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:40 pm
First Name: Rich
Aircraft Type: DA40
Aircraft Registration: N40XE
Airports: S39 Prineville OR
Has thanked: 145 times
Been thanked: 1180 times

Re: DA40NG Coolant Leak and ECU A Failure

Post by Rich »

Colin wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 5:59 pm Also, those are in-flight engine failure ACCIDENTS. That means there can be any number of in-flight engine failures without an accident that they are not counting. Those are more of what I am interested in, since *I* am the weak link the moment the engine fails.
It's impossible to get comprehensive data on engine failures that don't wind up as accidents. Many aren't even reported at all, especially partial-power losses. Even the ones that do get reported often show up as incidents in the daily FAA reports and vanish into the more obscure incident database.
2002 DA40-180: MT, PowerFlow, 530W/430W, KAP140, ext. baggage, 1090 ES out, 2646 MTOW, 40gal., Surefly, Flightstream 210, Orion 600 LED, XeVision, Aspen E5
User avatar
Boatguy
5 Diamonds Member
5 Diamonds Member
Posts: 1827
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:48 am
First Name: Russ
Aircraft Type: DA62
Aircraft Registration: N962M
Airports: KSTS
Has thanked: 1328 times
Been thanked: 1163 times

Re: DA40NG Coolant Leak and ECU A Failure

Post by Boatguy »

Rich wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 6:52 pm
Colin wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 5:59 pm Also, those are in-flight engine failure ACCIDENTS. That means there can be any number of in-flight engine failures without an accident that they are not counting. Those are more of what I am interested in, since *I* am the weak link the moment the engine fails.
It's impossible to get comprehensive data on engine failures that don't wind up as accidents. Many aren't even reported at all, especially partial-power losses. Even the ones that do get reported often show up as incidents in the daily FAA reports and vanish into the more obscure incident database.
Exactly. I had four flights with partial power loss this year (three after the problem was "fixed") and those will never show up in the database.
User avatar
krellis
4 Diamonds Member
4 Diamonds Member
Posts: 339
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 10:42 am
First Name: Keith
Aircraft Type: OTHER
Aircraft Registration: N853DF
Airports: GA04
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 63 times

Re: DA40NG Coolant Leak and ECU A Failure

Post by krellis »

Colin wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 5:59 pm Also, those are in-flight engine failure ACCIDENTS. That means there can be any number of in-flight engine failures without an accident that they are not counting. Those are more of what I am interested in, since *I* am the weak link the moment the engine fails.

1,800 hours on our IO-360. One electrical system failure on short final, undiagnosed issue. One alternator failure at 9,500 within gliding distance of Albany, landed without incident losing radios as we turned onto the taxiway. I can't think of any others off the top of my head.
So neither of your failures were related to the Lycoming engine.
Post Reply