Would you buy another DA XX?

The ramblings of our community of aviators.

Moderators: Rick, Lance Murray

User avatar
Rich
5 Diamonds Member
5 Diamonds Member
Posts: 4592
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:40 pm
First Name: Rich
Aircraft Type: DA40
Aircraft Registration: N40XE
Airports: S39 Prineville OR
Has thanked: 145 times
Been thanked: 1180 times

Re: Would you buy another DA XX?

Post by Rich »

Since I also have a round-gauge DA40 I'm in Steve's camp on this. I've upgraded all sorts of stuff, some using Diamond OSB's and related kits/parts, others through the 3rd party aftermarket. I'm also really happy with the much higher useful load attainable with these earlier airframes.

That said, I presume it's no longer possible to order a DA40 (or any other DA model) without G1000-family panels saddled with the continued non-support of Diamond/Garmin. Under that limitation I would not purchase a new one, either.
2002 DA40-180: MT, PowerFlow, 530W/430W, KAP140, ext. baggage, 1090 ES out, 2646 MTOW, 40gal., Surefly, Flightstream 210, Orion 600 LED, XeVision, Aspen E5
User avatar
dmloftus
4 Diamonds Member
4 Diamonds Member
Posts: 459
Joined: Thu May 07, 2020 3:38 pm
First Name: David
Aircraft Type: DA40
Aircraft Registration: N868US
Airports: KLZU
Has thanked: 211 times
Been thanked: 238 times

Re: Would you buy another DA XX?

Post by dmloftus »

I would absolutely buy another Diamond. I LOVE my 2008 XLS with GFC700/WAAS! For 3 years I did meticulous comparisons of the best reasonably-priced composite single-engine aircraft. I did not want a riveted aluminum bucket of bolts. I wanted something sleek and modern, with good performance and safety. I flew dozens of test flights in Cessna 350/400/TTx, SR20's, SR22T's, and DA40's. I really like the looks and speed of the SR22T and the parachute is a big plus with the wife. But I HATE the spring-loaded side stick which eliminates the feel of the aircraft, forcing you to fly it by the numbers like a B787 pilot. It simply is NOT a pilot's airplane. And it's amazing the number of SR22's on Trade-A-Plane that did not make TBO with their big Continental engines, many of them rebuilt at 1000 hours! I discussed this with several chief mechanics. One at KPAO said it best - he called the Continental IO550 "the money maker" (for him) because if you run it lean just once (ie leave it just a bit lean on a cruise descent) it will fry the top end. As chief mechanic for a very large club that has a good mix of Cessna, Cirrus, American Champion, and Diamond, he said the IO360 is by far the best, most reliable/robust, and most economical Avgas engine (maintenance-wise) in GA. Other chief mechanics of large clubs I spoke with that had both types expressed similar opinions.
I liked the speed and feel of the TTx even more than the Cirrus, and their implementation of the side stick is far superior to Cirrus aircraft - no spring loading, nimble, good feel especially near stall speed and landings. A slight downside was the runway length required, making it just a bit more interesting to land on the many 3000' fields I fly. But alas, Cessna could not sell enough of them against the parachute-marketed Cirrus causing them to discontinue the line, disqualifying them from my list of options due to the certain lack of support to follow.
Finally I got around to test flying the DA40 and fell in love. The feel of this aircraft is unmatched for a small GA aircraft. Unlike the dump truck feel of the C172's I was renting, the great feel and feedback of the center-stick Diamond was a huge step up. Sure I'd love another 50kts airspeed and another couple hundred pounds of useful load. But for 90% of the flying I do, 150kts is plenty, usually with just a copilot or by myself. The extra gas and maintenance costs of flying the bigger Cirrus/Cessna with less than four people would be a waste. And the 5-10% of flights I need 4 adults, I can go rent an SR22. But I also have an aircraft that is incredibly safe and FAR less expensive to fly than the other options. While I did extremely well as a top exec in Silicon Valley and could easily afford any of these planes new, I just don't like throwing away money. After retiring in 2019, I found a very good deal on my 2008 with 1000 hours and I have logged over 200 hours in the 18 months I have owned it. And loved every minute of it.
While I understand some of the complaints about lack of Garmin support, 0321.23 (v12.05) got me everything I wanted. With the GFC700, the plane is extremely well-equipped to fly any IFR mission I can think of. Might be nice to have the higher resolution Nxi screens, but that's a nit and will come when Garmin runs out of refurbished GDU1040's. A quick note on Garmin support, though. My aircraft had a config error gremlin that came up intermittently when I bought it. A very good avionics shop at KPDK chased it for a few weeks before I remembered the logs showing a refurbished 1040 being installed about 15 months prior. I suggested to the shop that we try to swap it, to which they handed me a $3K estimate. I called Garmin, went through a couple of layers of customer support/service, and they agreed to ship me a fresh refurbished unit at no cost, even though the prior unit was several months out of warranty. I dealt with Garmin as a semiconductor supplier for many years in my Silicon Valley days, they are a top-notch company with very honorable people, especially their leadership team.
The DA50 and the Panthera look really appealing and I'll definitely check them out when they have some traction and support in North America. In the meantime, I'll continue enjoying my DA40 and count my blessings that we are in a position to own our own aircraft.
User avatar
Derek
3 Diamonds Member
3 Diamonds Member
Posts: 117
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2012 7:07 am
First Name: Derek
Aircraft Type: DA40
Aircraft Registration: CGPDN
Airports: CYTZ
Has thanked: 18 times
Been thanked: 19 times

Re: Would you buy another DA XX?

Post by Derek »

I just went through the exercise of choosing and buying an upgrade from my DA20. I looked carefully at Columbia, Cirrus, Meridian and Diamond. I saw the same issues with lack of upgrade paths for various model years from all manufacturers. As for lack of service centres, it’s partly because the DA40 is so much more reliable than all it’s competitors except the 172/182. From what all mechanics told me, your Cirrus or TTX will be in the shop for longer, with more unexpected frustrating breakdowns, more costs (apparently way more), with more unreliability which leads to higher overall risk never mind the money. A DA40 will be less overall maintenance aggravation than it’s competitors no matter where you live.

The Diamond products really are better engineered. They get 85% of the speed of the cirrus/ttx with half the fuel burn, 60% of the horsepower, and half the maintenance breakdowns. They glide slower and fly and crash better/safer by a wide margin (except for a situation when a parachute is better).

As for upgrade-ability, I totally agree that it’s upsetting to buy a plane that could get orphaned simply because of electronics. But these birds are 20 years old now and the old ones, in the real world, are still almost as good as the new ones. I feel like we’re getting caught up in the latest electronic dodads. Does it really affect flight that much? How many diamond pilots really need or use WAAS? I don’t know enough about it yet but is it actually a thing where a bunch of us can’t get where we should be going because our plane doesn’t have certified waas?
User avatar
AndrewM
4 Diamonds Member
4 Diamonds Member
Posts: 239
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2016 2:05 pm
First Name: Andrew
Aircraft Type: DA40
Aircraft Registration: N897KC
Airports:
Has thanked: 73 times
Been thanked: 75 times

Re: Would you buy another DA XX?

Post by AndrewM »

The current DA40 I have does not have WAAS, the one before I had did have it.

You do not "need" WAAS in my view right now, but this depends on where you live and what approaches the fields you fly into, do or do not have. Some folks will say they really need WAAS as there are not many ILS approaches available. Where I live and where I most commonly fly to, there are plenty of ILS options to choose from, so no big deal.

But I will say, LPV approaches are going to become more and more common, so having WAAS in the future is going to be important in my view.
User avatar
dmloftus
4 Diamonds Member
4 Diamonds Member
Posts: 459
Joined: Thu May 07, 2020 3:38 pm
First Name: David
Aircraft Type: DA40
Aircraft Registration: N868US
Airports: KLZU
Has thanked: 211 times
Been thanked: 238 times

Re: Would you buy another DA XX?

Post by dmloftus »

I agree that WAAS is nice to have and not a must-have for most people and most airports. It is a convenience running an LPV approach and watching the plane descend the glide path without having to worry about multiple step-downs. It's an extra safety factor if you are approaching an airport where those step-downs really matter for terrain clearance. But a good, alert, IFR-capable pilot can easily navigate those step-downs with non-WAAS equipment. I certainly never had a problem before I had WAAS, and I consider myself an adequate IFR pilot rather than good. If my plane were of the pre-WAAS vintage, I would not be paying for the upgrade until forced to go Nxi due to G1000 legacy obsolescence. From what I heard from Garmin at Oshkosh, that is a long way off. By that time we may have many other choices.
User avatar
ememic99
5 Diamonds Member
5 Diamonds Member
Posts: 1078
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2014 10:31 am
First Name: Emir
Aircraft Type: DA42
Aircraft Registration: SEMAD
Airports: LDZA LDVA
Has thanked: 203 times
Been thanked: 390 times

Re: Would you buy another DA XX?

Post by ememic99 »

dmloftus wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:27 pm
If my plane were of the pre-WAAS vintage, I would not be paying for the upgrade until forced to go Nxi due to G1000 legacy obsolescence. From what I heard from Garmin at Oshkosh, that is a long way off. By that time we may have many other choices.
Yes… like changing the aircraft.
User avatar
Rich
5 Diamonds Member
5 Diamonds Member
Posts: 4592
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:40 pm
First Name: Rich
Aircraft Type: DA40
Aircraft Registration: N40XE
Airports: S39 Prineville OR
Has thanked: 145 times
Been thanked: 1180 times

Re: Would you buy another DA XX?

Post by Rich »

Here's a use case for you. My non-pilot wife can fly a coupled WAAS approach down to minimums - VMC or not.
2002 DA40-180: MT, PowerFlow, 530W/430W, KAP140, ext. baggage, 1090 ES out, 2646 MTOW, 40gal., Surefly, Flightstream 210, Orion 600 LED, XeVision, Aspen E5
User avatar
Boatguy
5 Diamonds Member
5 Diamonds Member
Posts: 1827
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:48 am
First Name: Russ
Aircraft Type: DA62
Aircraft Registration: N962M
Airports: KSTS
Has thanked: 1328 times
Been thanked: 1163 times

Re: Would you buy another DA XX?

Post by Boatguy »

Derek wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 5:22 pmHow many diamond pilots really need or use WAAS? I don’t know enough about it yet but is it actually a thing where a bunch of us can’t get where we should be going because our plane doesn’t have certified waas?
It is stated policy by the FAA in the U.S. to abandon ground based navigation systems except at Bravo and Charlie airports. They will maintain a Minimum Operational Network (MON) with ground based navigation systems that theoretically ensures a MON airport within 100nm of "almost" any point (i.e., mostly east of the Mississippi). Those airports are identified on the charts as MON. Yet I've seen the ILS systems at MON airports (e.g., KLHM or KAPC) be out of service for months at a time. The FAA is not very committed to the MON network.

Most RNAV (GPS) approaches have LP or LNAV minimums which don't require WAAS. For that matter we aren't Part 122 or 135 so we don't ever have to fly IFR; we can stay home and wait for a clear day. But the guy who is considering buying our plane in the future may feel differently.

The overarching point here is that because there is no upgrade path for our avionics, the value of our planes is going to fall far more than it should. Think about the value of 1970 C172 with original avionics, versus the same plane with a set of WAAS navigators and a new comm stack. Same airframe, same engine, big difference in market value.

Diamond has made it clear they are only willing to spend money on certifying avionics for new planes and even at that, their new planes lag by 3-4 years the features in the same avionics hardware (i.e., NXi) in new Cirrus, Textron and Beechcraft airplanes. If your Diamond is not a match for a plane that was or is in production, then there is no upgrade path for your plane. No matter how big your pile of AMUs, your plane cannot be upgraded because Diamond has not certified that configuration and Garmin won't invest in an STC.

Diamond has tied the value of our composite airplanes with a 75-100yr life to avionics with a 20yr life. Not having an upgrade path for the avionics is throwing away the value inherent in the composite airframe.
User avatar
Rich
5 Diamonds Member
5 Diamonds Member
Posts: 4592
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:40 pm
First Name: Rich
Aircraft Type: DA40
Aircraft Registration: N40XE
Airports: S39 Prineville OR
Has thanked: 145 times
Been thanked: 1180 times

Re: Would you buy another DA XX?

Post by Rich »

LP approaches are WAAS approaches and I get vertical guidance for LPV, LP and LNAV.
2002 DA40-180: MT, PowerFlow, 530W/430W, KAP140, ext. baggage, 1090 ES out, 2646 MTOW, 40gal., Surefly, Flightstream 210, Orion 600 LED, XeVision, Aspen E5
User avatar
Boatguy
5 Diamonds Member
5 Diamonds Member
Posts: 1827
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:48 am
First Name: Russ
Aircraft Type: DA62
Aircraft Registration: N962M
Airports: KSTS
Has thanked: 1328 times
Been thanked: 1163 times

Re: Would you buy another DA XX?

Post by Boatguy »

Rich wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:49 pm LP approaches are WAAS approaches and I get vertical guidance for LPV, LP and LNAV.
Not according to the FAA.

LPV and LNAV/VNAV have vertical guidance. LP and LNAV do not.

You may be getting Garmin's synthetic vertical guidance as in LNAV+V, but that is not TERPS compliant FAA verified vertical guidance; that's Garmin's wishful / "advisory" vertical guidance which lays a 3˚ glide slope on an LNAV approach.

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/he ... 122012.pdf
Post Reply