G1000 Legacy & NXi upgrade program

[Chris]

Because your end-state appears to match a production configuration of the DA42, there's likely no TCCA certification hurdle. It will depend on how much demand there is at whatever turns out to be the pricing for the LRUs, wiring, and labor. How's that ballpark pricing look to you?

Pricing for the G1000 Legacy direct to NXI Phase 2 seems fine to me if it becomes available for the DA42-NG. I agree that it's more of a demand and support issue rather than a certification issue.

I would advise owners against retaining, much less upgrading to, the Phase 1 combination of NXI displays (GDU5xxx) and Legacy GIAs (GIA63W) for the reason Emir explains -- there will be no more software updates.

Agreed. I have no desire to jump from one dead-end to another dead-end. Sign me up for Phase III, Phase IV, or Phase X whenever those come out.

[chili4way]

All the Cirrus Perspective planes, Cessna, Piper, etc. with the original G1000 installation face this same Legacy LRU situation. It's not unique to Diamond -- it's a Garmin issue. In theory, Garmin "just" needs to develop an updated technology, 100% software compatible version of the original G1000 LRUs, and prove interoperability to the FAA, EASA, and TCCA's satisfaction. Then any Garmin shop could swap in the new version. Of Garmin would have to be able to do this for the same price as the current practice of swapping in refurbished legacy units.

I don't think this is likely. Owners need to plan and budget for an "avionics overhaul" much as they do for their engine(s).

We've requested updated pricing regarding the current upgrade programs (pricing expires Dec 31). We've also asked for Garmin's timeline for support capabilities for legacy G1000 avionics.

[mhoran]

I don't think this is likely. Owners need to plan and budget for an "avionics overhaul" much as they do for their engine(s).

I really don't see this happening. While we haven't yet seen what end of support looks like for the G1000, let's say for the sake of argument that Garmin stops supporting the legacy G1000 in 2030 (8 years). Since 2007, I'll have only replaced the engine once, at a cost of $30k. We don't yet have a path to NXi for legacy G1000 equipped DA40s. But again, let's say we do. Maybe that'll be 70k. Maybe more, depending on the autopilot situation. So that means investing $100k on engine and avionics alone for a 23 year old airplane. But the return on investment just isn't there. I'd be better off selling the plane at that point (to who? Does the used market even exist for these planes at that point?)

The more prudent option would then be to rip out the G1000 in its entirely and replace it with something that would be more cost efficient to maintain. Garmin is really shooting themselves in the foot here. When these airplanes get to this point, why would anyone give any more money to Garmin? An previous mechanic of mine was always hassling me for having a G1000 equipped airplane and bragging about the great avionics he had installed in his planes at a fraction of the cost.

[Chris]

So that means investing $100k on engine and avionics alone for a 23 year old airplane. But the return on investment just isn't there. I'd be better off selling the plane at that point (to who? Does the used market even exist for these planes at that point?)

I don't think 23 years is exceptionally old for used aircraft. There are plenty of examples of 20+ year-old SEP aircraft on Controller selling for about what they cost when they were new. Granted, the market is crazy right now. At some point the airframe value reaches some relatively-stable (and low) value, and the overall aircraft value is based primarily on engine TBO, expected recurring expenses, and avionics capabilities.

The more prudent option would then be to rip out the G1000 in its entirely and replace it with something that would be more cost efficient to maintain.

Absolutely correct, IMO. That path should be available to DA40 owners, but I don't think it is an option for those of us who have aircraft wedded to the G1000 via the type certificate.

[chili4way]

So that means investing $100k on engine and avionics alone for a 23 year old airplane. But the return on investment just isn't there.

What's the next-best alternative? If you still like the DA40 because it matches your missions, a new one will cost you around $500,000 and used NXI models are extremely hard to find and have impressive prices. Presumably, a well-maintained composite airframe has another 25-50 years of life left on it. I think this "conventional wisdom" of ROI needs to be and eventually will be tested. It's the bottleneck.

The more prudent option would then be to rip out the G1000 in its entirely and replace it with something that would be more cost-efficient to maintain.

This rip-out-the-G1000 option is a business opportunity that an enterprising entrepreneurial avionics company could undertake via STC. The associated certification work is not trivial - and this assumes a single configuration option. The total development budget would wind up being allocated by the expected market via the STC charge. That could be $10,000-$25,000 per plane (depending on the number of owners that would buy into this), on top of the avionics, wiring, and installation labor. Perhaps this could end up costing less than a Legacy-NXI/P2 upgrade that matches certified production, but unless the ROI conventional wisdom changes, we'd still be stuck without a solution. Nobody's going to invest in the development when there's no market or opportunity to make money.

[mhoran]

I don't think 23 years is exceptionally old for used aircraft. There are plenty of examples of 20+ year-old SEP aircraft on Controller selling for about what they cost when they were new. Granted, the market is crazy right now. At some point the airframe value reaches some relatively-stable (and low) value, and the overall aircraft value is based primarily on engine TBO, expected recurring expenses, and avionics capabilities.

That's exactly my point. Prior to the current market conditions, my plane was worth about $200k, give or take. So an engine plus avionics overhaul is over half the value of the plane. That just doesn't align with the rest of the used market, outside of G1000 equipped airplanes. I don't see how this could hold up long term.

[mhoran]

What's the next-best alternative? If you still like the DA40 because it matches your missions, a new one will cost you around $500,000 and used NXI models are extremely hard to find and have impressive prices. Presumably, a well-maintained composite airframe has another 25-50 years of life left on it. I think this "conventional wisdom" of ROI needs to be and eventually will be tested. It's the bottleneck.

If this issue is not resolved when I'm ready to purchase my next airplane, it won't be a Diamond and it won't have a G1000 (and preferably, no Garmin avionics whatsoever.) I do hope that this issue is resolved with pricing that makes sense within a reasonable time frame, but at this point I'm not sure. This is why I went ahead and upgraded to WAAS in my current airplane, to get as much value and life out of it as possible.

Edit: it's also worth pointing out that since 2019 I've spent $30k on avionics upgrades -- this includes the GTX-345 for ADS-B out and the WAAS upgrade. So that's an additional $30k on whatever the upgrade path from legacy G1000 ends up being. Not all owners are in this situation, but a lot of us are.

[TimS]

Avidyne is pursuing a new product line called Vantage. This line initial target is for older Cirrus with the Enterga system.
When you add up the component parts and replacement of all the avionics including Nav/Com, A/P, MFD and PFD. You will be in the 100-125K range.

Or you can go the Garmin TXi route including all the same parts. 115K was the budget quote I got from two avionics shops.

No matter how you slice or dice it; the world of avionics has changed from the 50s and 60s where they were a small part of the value of the plane. Now, they are a significant investment, and likely have a life of 15 to 20 years.

Tim

[Colin]

Garmin is really shooting themselves in the foot here.

Garmin is looking at the jet market where there is less price sensitivity. (When I had my ADS-B done I talked to a guy getting it done on his Citation. It was an older model, not particularly fast. The ADS-B was $110k as an upgrade.)

[Boatguy]

Honeywell is entering the SEP market. Their wedge between Avidyne and Garmin could be STCs for G1000 aircraft. I don't think it's real for another couple of years, but their entry should change the market dynamics.