G1000 Legacy & NXi upgrade program

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TimS
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Re: G1000 Legacy & NXi upgrade program

Post by TimS »

Boatguy wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 1:00 am Honeywell is entering the SEP market. Their wedge between Avidyne and Garmin could be STCs for G1000 aircraft. I don't think it's real for another couple of years, but their entry should change the market dynamics.
I would prefer to bet on Garmin G3X, or Dynon. They are available for a number of metal planes. Just waiting for the FAA on composites.

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Re: G1000 Legacy & NXi upgrade program

Post by Boatguy »

TimS wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 1:20 am
Boatguy wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 1:00 am Honeywell is entering the SEP market. Their wedge between Avidyne and Garmin could be STCs for G1000 aircraft. I don't think it's real for another couple of years, but their entry should change the market dynamics.
I would prefer to bet on Garmin G3X, or Dynon. They are available for a number of metal planes. Just waiting for the FAA on composites.
Honeywell owns Bendix-King and thus has a well established "installed base" on most of those metal planes. Honeywell support for a KAP-140 seems more likely than Garmin support.
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Re: G1000 Legacy & NXi upgrade program

Post by dmloftus »

chili4way wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 4:16 pm
dmloftus wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 6:17 am You likely know that your GIA63W's will technically work with the NXi displays. I confirmed that with Garmin's field service manager at Oshkosh in July. Diamond just needs to sign off on that combination, which he also mentioned should be a relatively minor effort. Is there any incremental benefit in performance or features you're expecting by purchasing the GIA64 units?
I would advise owners against retaining, much less upgrading to, the Phase 1 combination of NXI displays (GDU5xxx) and Legacy GIAs (GIA63W) for the reason Emir explains -- there will be no more software updates. NXI avionics need to be Phase 2 (or newer) to receive future software updates from Diamond & Garmin.
Hi Paul,
I'm not sure I understand your point. My question to Garmin management was whether it's possible to swap current 1040's for upgraded NXi displays and get upgraded screens and features. Their answer was that it was completely supported with my existing GIA63W's and other 2008 vintage LRU's. Diamond just needs to sign off. Garmin and Diamond will need to continue to support GIA63W's for some time, why else would they be offering a very expensive way for non-WAAS G1000's to swap their GIA63's for GIA63W's? Is the expectation for those shelling out $50K to get WAAS that they will get no further updates?
Having recently replaced a PFD, I found out the biggest failure item by far in current non-WAAS or WAAS-enabled G1000 systems is the display (PFD or MFD) due to button, knob, and display screen malfunctions. Mine actually failed due to a flaky interface with the config module. When they finally run out of replacement parts to repair/refurbish 1040's, there will be no other option than to offer owners the newer NXi displays (whatever phase they are on at the time the 1040's become obsolete). If they don't support that path with future upgrades, they will P.O. thousands and thousands of GA customers from many makes. I don't think they will be able to demand those customers with a simple display failure to rip out their entire G1000 system and upgrade to the latest rev. Garmin indicated there is interoperability between these systems to allow eventual migration, especially on the displays. Getting the upgraded resolution and NXi features would be a nice plus. Thanks.
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Re: G1000 Legacy & NXi upgrade program

Post by Boatguy »

Garmin offered a GDU only swap on a number of Cessna models to get from G1000 to NXi. The cost was about $30K. Since Diamond has never certified that configuration, and Garmin didn't develop the STC, that option is not available to Diamond owners.

We can beat this dead horse further, but the simple answer is that the only configurations that will ever be available in a Diamond are those that were in a new production plane at some point in time, or for which some third party, like Garmin has certified an STC. Diamond will not spend the money to certify anything else, and Garmin has been very very stingy in their STCs for Diamond aircraft.

Pushing on Garmin management, and more specifically the after market sale organization, is the most likely path to seeing an STC for Diamond aircraft for all manner of Garmin products (G3, NXi, etc. etc.).
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Re: G1000 Legacy & NXi upgrade program

Post by dmloftus »

Hi Russ,
Ok, understood. Personally I’m happy with what I have. My motivation with Garmin was to understand technically what the eventual path could be when they run out of refurbished displays. Having spent 30 years in semiconductors, I understand the obsolescence cycle very well (and I’ve had Garmin as a customer for many years). I was happy to hear that there is not an interoperability roadblock from Garmin’s side. I would expect when that day is near, Garmin and Diamond will be forced to offer the NXi display upgrade path to existing G1000 customers. Maybe if enough of us point out that inevitability to Diamond, they may accelerate a solution. In the meantime, I’ll cross my fingers that I don’t lose another display.
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Re: G1000 Legacy & NXi upgrade program

Post by ememic99 »

dmloftus wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 9:48 am I would expect when that day is near, Garmin and Diamond will be forced to offer the NXi display upgrade path to existing G1000 customers. Maybe if enough of us point out that inevitability to Diamond, they may accelerate a solution. In the meantime, I’ll cross my fingers that I don’t lose another display.
No, they will not be forced because there’s no mechanism that can push them to do that. We’ve been pointing out this for 3-4 years both to Diamond and Garmin without any success.

Regarding the interoperability of the components (different LRUs) it exist only in theory. For putting them in function, new software is needed and that’s major obstacle.
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Re: G1000 Legacy & NXi upgrade program

Post by dmloftus »

ememic99 wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 1:11 pm
dmloftus wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 9:48 am I would expect when that day is near, Garmin and Diamond will be forced to offer the NXi display upgrade path to existing G1000 customers. Maybe if enough of us point out that inevitability to Diamond, they may accelerate a solution. In the meantime, I’ll cross my fingers that I don’t lose another display.
No, they will not be forced because there’s no mechanism that can push them to do that. We’ve been pointing out this for 3-4 years both to Diamond and Garmin without any success.

Regarding the interoperability of the components (different LRUs) it exist only in theory. For putting them in function, new software is needed and that’s major obstacle.
It’s not theory, Garmin is shipping NXi displays today to upgrade customers on other platforms with the same configuration: GIA63W’s and balance of our same LRU’s. The software is there, it is built with backward compatibility. The config module for each platform informs the OFP which code to run for which LRU’s are present. Unfortunately in our particular case, Diamond needs to sign off.
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Re: G1000 Legacy & NXi upgrade program

Post by chili4way »

If an owner's primary concern is Garmin's ability to support Legacy G1000 LRUs over the long term, then just upgrading the GDUs doesn't solve the problem. Any legacy hardware that is no longer in production presents a support risk, notably the GIA63Ws.

Upgrading just the GDUs certainly improves display performance and enables some additional features (e.g. HSI maps). What would be nice to have is a definitive list regarding which functions/features in the current Phase II or future Phase III systems require the GIA64 and cannot be supported on the GIA63Ws due to technical limitations.
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Re: G1000 Legacy & NXi upgrade program

Post by dmloftus »

chili4way wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 4:52 pm If an owner's primary concern is Garmin's ability to support Legacy G1000 LRUs over the long term, then just upgrading the GDUs doesn't solve the problem. Any legacy hardware that is no longer in production presents a support risk, notably the GIA63Ws.
... What would be nice to have is a definitive list regarding which functions/features in the current Phase II or future Phase III systems require the GIA64 and cannot be supported on the GIA63Ws due to technical limitations.
Agreed, it would be great to have an interoperability and horizon report on different G1000 LRU's across generations. Seems like there are many interested parties other than Diamond pilots that are facing the same questions and would value that report. Again I am happy with what I have, so for me the upgraded GDU's is a nice to have, not a must have. But from my understanding, that is the first LRU that is likely to face obsolescence issues.
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Re: G1000 Legacy & NXi upgrade program

Post by CFIDave »

What you seem to be describing, i.e., just replacing Legacy G1000 PFD/MFD screens with NXi screens, would create the equivalent of G1000 NXi Phase I. NXI Phase I was already certified for the DA40NG, DA42-VI and DA62 that were delivered in 2017-2019 -- but not for any Lycoming DA40s (since that model was out of production until re-introduced more recently with the G1000 NXi Phase II hardware including GIA64Ws, GEA71B and GMA1360 audio panel).

Furthermore as has been pointed out elsewhere, NXI Phase I is a dead-end system with no more software updates.

So with respect to certification, Lycoming DA40 Legacy G1000 owners could potentially upgrade only to NXi Phase II.
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