210 HP with IO390. Vote

Group opinion recorded by the community.

Moderators: Rick, Lance Murray

Would you buy this for $ 30-40K

Yes, certainly, as soon as available
4
4%
Yes but I will wait until TBO of my existing engine
21
21%
Maybe, I need to know more
16
16%
I would also be willing to put up a deposit upfront
3
3%
I already have a powerflow exhaust
19
19%
I dont have a powerflow
9
9%
My prop is MT 3 blade
13
13%
My prop as Hartzell 2 blade metal
15
15%
My prop is Hartzell 2 blade composite
2
2%
 
Total votes: 102
Antoine
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210 HP with IO390. Vote

Post by Antoine »

Lycoming have listened to us! 30 additional HP for the DA40, with very little extra weight, no complexity and a fully certfied STCed solution. Sounds good? Read on and please contribute.

Lycoming are working on an internal business case for STCing the IO-390 on the DA40.
The investment for the STC is a 6 digit number and understandably they have limited funds in the Echelon program.

Jeff Schans, Lycoming's Echelon Manager, told me he is planning on having us in the 2012 Budget.
In order to get that idea through his corporate approval process, he needs to document our interest.

I will add a FAQ below and will update it so that we all see the progress.
Please take the poll and note you may check multiple answers. You may also alter them as we go.
This thread will be visited by Lycoming and Diamond! Welcome here guys...

Cheers

FAQ

Is the IO390 drop-in compatible?

Maybe, Lycoming are checking that.

What would it bring?

30 HP more. The performance benefits will heavily depend upon the quality of the integration (cowling, cooling drag). I have suggested that Lycoming contact LoPresti on this matter and Jeff said ok.
From calculations expexct 300 to 500 fpm increase in climb rate. Speed increase is definitely single digit but wait and see.

There is also potential for increased MTOW but that is a more complex certification matter.

More fuel burn?

Only if we use the extra power. Otherwise expect equivalent fuel efficiency. Same speed same GPH same range.

What is the weight penalty?

About 8 lbs. See below for 2007 and later planes for which there is potentially a weight and CG benefit.

What is the CG impact?

I have informed of the aft CG issue with the more recent DA40. Will be taken into consideration. If at all possible, proper placement of the engine might let us get rid of the 17 lbs of ballast that are factory built into 2008 and later planes while improving CG of the empty plane. That alone would be a major benefit!

Cost?

Ballpark for the base upgrade is $ 30 to 40 K. No powerflow, no new prop. More detail will follow

Is my existing Powerflow compatible?

Lycoming are in touch with PF to check.

Is my existing prop compatible?

Lycoming are also checking.

Will the IO390 run on MOGAS?

Unlike our IO360, the IO390 is not approved by Lycoming for MOGAS. This is due to the higher compression 8.9)


Please ask more questions and will try to get answers asap
Antoine
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alexanderk
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Re: 210 HP with IO390. Vote

Post by alexanderk »

But would not a diesel or a modern engine be a higher priority? Given a choice, I'd go with a FADEC engine and/or diesel over the straight power increase option.

Did not intend to highjack the thread, please move/delete if inappropriate.
Antoine
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Re: 210 HP with IO390. Vote

Post by Antoine »

No problem. Firstly I would like to clarify that I am in no way related to Lycoming, which means I am very open to any good idea.

Which diesel did you mean? The Austro is available and Diamond already offers an upgrade for TDIs. Given enough demand they might do the same for our Lyco powered planes.
But as far as I am concerned that's a "no thanks": I think the Austro is way too heavy and only makes sense if you cant get hold of AVGAS. Plus the cowling makes me wonder if they designed the plane for Frankenstein?
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alexanderk
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Re: 210 HP with IO390. Vote

Post by alexanderk »

Well, we don't really have a choice in North America. No TDI version here.

But in principle - it sure would be nice to have the upgrade path available for the Lycoming version.
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Jean
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Re: 210 HP with IO390. Vote

Post by Jean »

Unlike our IO360, the IO390 is not approved by Lycoming for MOGAS. This is due to the higher compression 8.9)
Too bad :thumbsd:
AVGAS is getting very expensive over here (around 2.50 €/L or 12 $/G) and availabilty some times uncertain. When you travel in France on week ends, you better check NOTAMS to make sur AVGAS is available on destination.
I would sign for a MOGAS STC rather than IO390
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Antoine
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Re: 210 HP with IO390. Vote

Post by Antoine »

I have redone the math. Here the results:

Speed increase: theoretical max is 5% or 7 to 8 knots, ignoring the increased cooling drag.
Climb rate increase is between 300 and 360 fpm, depending upon plane mass.

Interesting and slightly disappointing. Brings up one question: how hard would it be to achieve the same results by optimising aerodynamics?
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Kai
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Re: 210 HP with IO390. Vote

Post by Kai »

Antoine wrote:Speed increase: theoretical max is 5% or 7 to 8 knots, ignoring the increased cooling drag.
This is at full power settings. Looking through our reports section it seems we run our fleet at the lower power settings, a guessed 65% in average. Following the numbers you came up with, the speed increase would be 4 kts there. Not very probable that there are many of us chipping out $30-40k for this.

Now, if you are in the market for a brand new XLS and Diamond would give you the option to pay $15k on top for an IO390- instead of an IO360-equipped DA40, nobody would hesitate a second.
Antoine wrote:Interesting and slightly disappointing. Brings up one question: how hard would it be to achieve the same results by optimising aerodynamics?
Hard. Actually, you know, there is nothing harder than a Diamond. ;) Get a STC for a retractable gear retrofit, re-shape the wings and cut them by a foot or two and off you go. :D
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Graham
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Re: 210 HP with IO390. Vote

Post by Graham »

Antoine wrote:I have redone the math. Here the results:

Speed increase: theoretical max is 5% or 7 to 8 knots, ignoring the increased cooling drag.
Climb rate increase is between 300 and 360 fpm, depending upon plane mass.

Interesting and slightly disappointing. Brings up one question: how hard would it be to achieve the same results by optimising aerodynamics?
If the math is correct, it seems underwhelming results for the cost if you tend to run at lower power as Kai mentioned. It could make sense at TBO if the changeover costs were not too far off of factory rebuilt IO-360.

I thought Diamond built the DA40 with the goal of optimising aerodynamics to get the max performance out of a 180HP engine? If there were other benefit to be truly gained, you would think they would have utilized them in the design. At a guess, you would need to go to a composite mooney design to get the speed but then lose some of the more docile DA40 characteristics.
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Re: 210 HP with IO390. Vote

Post by Antoine »

i agree that we would probably not really need the extra top speed since we re not even running our existing engine at full cruise settings now. What I can ceertainly use is the inçreased climb rate and ( hush thats confidential) the increased MTOW...

As to aerodynamic enhancements, I suspect the existing cowling and cooling solution to allow significant improvements. See LoPresti cowlings for Mooneys.

So tu summarize my point of view: speed increases are only economically feasible by reducing drag. The interesting bit is that this ALSO increases climb rate, beacuse climb performance is the extra power available after you've paid the "drag tax".
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Graham
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Re: 210 HP with IO390. Vote

Post by Graham »

Antoine wrote:i agree that we would probably not really need the extra top speed since we re not even running our existing engine at full cruise settings now. What I can ceertainly use is the inçreased climb rate and ( hush thats confidential) the increased MTOW...

As to aerodynamic enhancements, I suspect the existing cowling and cooling solution to allow significant improvements. See LoPresti cowlings for Mooneys.
An increased MTOW would be of interest and if a bit more speed came along with it...maybe not a bad option.

I looked at the LoPresti site, maybe there is something to be improved.
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