Prebuy// sale experience

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mhoran
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Re: Prebuy// sale experience

Post by mhoran »

firedwg1 wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 5:27 pm Not that Tiedown see bad, but Tiedown in NJ is awful for a plane.
That's a bit of a blanket statement. I know many DA40s tried down in NJ and they're just fine -- mine included. The cost of maintenance due to the outdoors is still significantly less than the cost of a hangar at my home base. It just takes a caring owner, which clearly this wasn't.

Bummer though, I've seen that plane around. I purchased my plane though John 10 years ago and had a pretty good experience. Sorry to hear things went this way for you. I think the overheated market has resulted in some pretty shady practices across the board.
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Re: Prebuy// sale experience

Post by VickersPilot »

This is a buyers market now, just some buyers haven’t yet realised it. Write your own contract and ignore the broker.
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Re: Prebuy// sale experience

Post by firedwg1 »

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Last edited by firedwg1 on Fri Mar 10, 2023 11:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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mhoran
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Re: Prebuy// sale experience

Post by mhoran »

That sounds more like the John I've worked with in the past. We had the same model year issue with our 2007, which according to the FAA is a 2006. The GDL82 is a bit odd, but with a 337 I suppose it's legal. However, I do remember Garmin stating at some point that the GDL82 would not work properly with the mode S transponder in the G1000 system. A bit odd to skimp on the install of the GTX-345 which is far superior, and wouldn't have raised an issue at resale. Also this would mostly make TIS vs TAS moot if the 345 were installed, since the 345 would provide traffic.
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Re: Prebuy// sale experience

Post by chocolatecake »

Also pro-tip: if the MSI is past due, make sure it has been done. That was one we weren't given a heads up about, wasn't flagged on the pre-buy, and was a nice $10k surprise on our first 100 hour inspection with local mechanic.
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Re: Prebuy// sale experience

Post by QuickOne »

chocolatecake wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 4:39 am Also pro-tip: if the MSI is past due, make sure it has been done. That was one we weren't given a heads up about, wasn't flagged on the pre-buy, and was a nice $10k surprise on our first 100 hour inspection with local mechanic.
When searching the forum for MSI, people are indicating a cost of around $5k. Are you including the 10k in the cost of the 100 hour inspection, or 10K additional?
How much did you pay for your prebuy if you don't mind me asking, as I would think something like that should have been caught.
Thanks.
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Re: Prebuy// sale experience

Post by mhoran »

I've written extensively about the MSI in various places on the forum. Besides the question of whether or not it really is mandatory -- and regardless, I still recommend to have it performed -- the inspection itself should cost less than $1000 on top of an annual. However, the squawks that are uncovered could easily add up to $10k. This is why it's very important to work with a DASC that is well versed in the AMM and various procedures for something large like the MSI. There have also been various interpretations as to whether e.g. fuel hoses must be replaced at the MSI or whether on condition is acceptable. These sort of items, if performed but unnecessary, can really drive up the price.

Also often lumped in with the MSI are the other 1000 hour items, like the bonding check (which can uncover expensive squawks). Again, this is why it's very important to dive deep into the logbook to make sure these inspections have been performed before you take ownership.
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Re: Prebuy// sale experience

Post by firedwg1 »

Followup:
John Armstrong at LifeStyle called me shortly after my posts and he was disappointed we'd had a less than ideal experience. He was earnest to help make it right for us and did so and he also asked that I repost some corrected facts so that this post would not live forever with corrected information.

1. Regarding Model years John clarified for me that the serial number drives the Manufacturer Model Year and a plane certificated prior to year end (Like this one with a December 28th 2012 Certificate of Airworthiness date) the model year is set by the factory by serial number not date. All units past the last serial number for a model year are the next model year. ln such a case the FAA registration still uses the year month of manufacture but the unit for value and proper representation are the model year the manufacturer deems for that model year. John provided me the letter of designation from Diamond for the plane involved and it did state clearly the plane is indeed a 2013 model. He and I discussed that this can cause confusion for sure and he said it does but "it is what it is" and there is a method to confirm it for all involved. He provided the example of car manufacturers that produce new year models and have them arriving at dealer lots as early as October many times.

2. Regarding the ADS-B being flagged by the inspection facility as not improperly installed, Lifestyle Aviation pointed to the Form 337 for the GDL82, they double checked the paperwork with another avionics shop to make sure it was correct and obtained a letter from the FAA authorized A&P/IA that signed it off clarifying the method used for installation and testing and even provided the ADS-B test data. So in summary the ADS-B unit was legit and installed properly. So lesson learned, it is possible to install something that is not approved by STC if properly done and documented.

3. John apologized for not listing the plane as " With Damage history" and provided the logbook entry that was not included in the logbooks the owners supplied. He explained the owners had a few log entries that had not gotten in the books and said his staff member took full responsibility for not catching the paint difference during the visual inspection. Their contract actually worked well allowing a full exit with return of deposit and John offered to cover our expenses which was not part of the contract but a nice gesture. They sent me the log entry that showed it was a Class 4 repair which is the most minor designation involving paint and filler only and NO glass work so at least that all got updated and John sent me details of their listing update that corrected it. Glad to see that got sorted but it sure would have been better if the owner has made sure all log entries were updated before turning over for inspection.

4. Language in the description of the listing led me to believe that the aircraft was a fully upgraded XLT and in my assumption I thought that meant all available avionics gear too. John clarified and helped me understand that the XLT was a package of features primarily including the major interior redesign that Diamond did that made the seats wider, added lumbar support, included infrared control technology leather, cup holders front and back, integrated storage pockets. So their listing was actually accurate on some of the items I had crowed about not being included.

5.Verification of TIS - John explained base Traffic Information System (TIS) is a transponder based system standard for all DA40 G1000 models. Regarding TAWS he clarified that all the G1000 DA40's have basic TAWS but not necessarily the TAWS-B higher performance terrain alerting version feature unlock card. He shared that when the 2008 DA40 XLS came out TAWS-B was included but the next year model they made it optional as an over $8k cost option. So the -B version was not part of the base model past 2008. Since I had a 2008 DA40 XLS in the past with TAWS -B unlock I assumed they all had it...not the case. The LifeStyle guys had actually listed it correctly I just had certain assumptions base on the plane I had before.

6. Garmin FlightCharts vs Jepp ChartView, this was one of the more confusing parts because the logbook review showed what appeared to us as the Diamond factory updating Jepp charts. As it turned out John reviewed it and clarified that the entry showed the Diamond factory had referenced updating Jeppesen data not Jeppesen ChartView Charts and there was no reference to ChartView. John explained that in the past (in the era of this entry) the data for the airports was supplied by Jeppesen and referred to as Jeppesen data and the plates were always referenced as Jeppesen ChartView. Garmin these days and for some time displaced Jeppesen as the supplier exclusively of the airport data and updates are done for Garmin data and Garmin plates all via flygarmin.com. He provided me a helpful url that explains the differences between Garmin FlightCharts and Jeppesen ChartView. As it turned out this was not inaccurately represented just confusing like a lot of things.
https://support.garmin.com/en-US/?faq=U ... Sltzqz3gS8

7. John stated the listing agent will be working with the owners over the annual to address all airworthy issues before this aircraft will be back on market as part of its annual and any buyer that contracts it will have the opportunity to confirm all items are operative and airworthy.

8. Lastly, John Assured me the marketing team will be taking a deep dive on all listings, especially this one to ensure the most accurate information. He said they will make photos available presenting any minor cosmetic conditions in advance for their listings so buyers will have access to see what they will see in person. John has taken full responsibility for this and I believe it shows character to admit to an issue and correct it on the spot.

Overall, this situation was discussed on the DA40 forum as a Prebuy experience to learn from only. I have no hard feelings with LifeStyle Aviation and was pleased to learn a few things and be corrected on some of the items and to have the chance to air some of the other items that had been a concern. The good news is John Armstrong was eager to take lessons learned and adjust business practices and was interested in getting things accurate and clear for all involved. He stated also that they do have alternate contract paperwork clients can use if they want to that provides for a traditional walk-away pre-buy, but he stressed they strongly recommend, for modern planes built this century, the approach that requires sellers to correct inoperative and un-airworthy items while allowing buyers to step out if undisclosed damage is found to protect buyers makes the process as fair and efficient as possible.
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Re: Prebuy// sale experience

Post by pisymbol »

mhoran wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 5:58 pm
firedwg1 wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 5:27 pm Not that Tiedown see bad, but Tiedown in NJ is awful for a plane.
That's a bit of a blanket statement. I know many DA40s tried down in NJ and they're just fine -- mine included. The cost of maintenance due to the outdoors is still significantly less than the cost of a hangar at my home base. It just takes a caring owner, which clearly this wasn't.

Bummer though, I've seen that plane around. I purchased my plane though John 10 years ago and had a pretty good experience. Sorry to hear things went this way for you. I think the overheated market has resulted in some pretty shady practices across the board.
Same. We've had ours tied down in NJ for years. No issue. Hangars are almost impossible to come by and at $500/month, no electricity/heat, we didn't think it was worth it.
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Re: Prebuy// sale experience

Post by CFIDave »

I thought it might be helpful to clarify DA40 traffic and terrain warning systems:

TIS (Traffic Information Service) is an old (now obsolete) service based on the Mode S transponder (GTX33R, GTX335R, GTX345R) included in all Diamond G1000 flight decks, and even with some GNS430/530 units. It depends on the FAA secondary surveillance radar typically located in approach control (TRACON) locations, where the radar can interrogate transponder-based targets and transmit such target info to any Mode S transponder-equipped aircraft that are within range and "listening." TIS service has been gradually disappearing as the FAA has been replacing its secondary surveillance radar systems with newer units -- NONE of which support TIS.

Why is TIS being eliminated? Because the FAA assumed that by now any aircraft owner who wants traffic info will have installed ADS-B IN/OUT -- with its own far superior TIS-B traffic service. (Don't confuse the older TIS service with the newer ADS-B-based TIS-B traffic service; they're completely separate.) So TIS service has been going away.

TIS is used by G1000-equipped aircraft only as a fallback if the plane lacks either a TAS active traffic system (e.g., an Avidyne TAS600-series unit) or the GTX345R transponder with ADS-B IN (TIS-B). In most US geographic areas TIS service is not available.

Terrain proximity warning systems in Diamond aircraft have also evolved over time. All G1000s have had a Terrain map page on the MFD showing ground proximity (in red or yellow) based on a terrain elevation database and the plane's GPS position.

But to provide a "look ahead" terrain warning system to the pilot with audible/visible annunciations, Garmin started offering a TAWS-B software feature with G1000s, optionally available for about $8000 and requiring a software unlock SDcard. Beginning with the 2007 DA40 XL model Diamond chose to include TAWS-B as a "free" standard feature. (TAWS-B is required by the FAA for Part 91 and Part 135 turbine aircraft with 6 or more passenger seats; TAWS-A is for airliners). One way to tell if your plane has TAWS-B installed is the "five hundred" audio annunciation you hear when flying on base or final approach.

However, in 2008 when Garmin introduced Synthetic Vision (SVT) -- a $10,000 option back in 2008 -- it included a "TAWS-light" subset of terrain warnings that provided nearly as much functionality as TAWS-B. And because most buyers of new DA40s chose to purchase the SVT option, starting in 2009 Diamond decided to make TAWS-B an extra-cost option. So TAWS-B was standard only on 2007-2008 DA40s -- after that very few DA40s included TAWS-B and the option was eventually dropped.
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