Delivery. And a long story....

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Boatguy
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Re: Delivery. And a long story....

Post by Boatguy »

WRT to China (and significant thread drift), I've never found any evidence that Wanfeng, who owns Diamond, has government ownership, though they are nominally a supplier to the military (like thousands of companies in the U.S.). Cirrus on the other hand is owned by AVIC which is a wholly government owned aerospace/defense/aviation company. Cirrus is unambiguously a Chinese SOE (state owned enterprise).

However, before Cirrus was acquired by AVIC, they already were a very customer focused company with excellent marketing and communication skills baked into their corporate culture. AVIC has wisely not done anything to diminish those skills or change the culture. Further, Cirrus had, and continues to have, a quality design and build culture. They meet delivery commitments and the list of Cirrus ADs is very very short. The planes are not trouble free, but if you want a custom color, unique stitching on the interior or a custom registration number they are happy to provide it (for an upcharge) without impacting your delivery schedule.

I think the problem with Wanfeng is that, apart from their real estate business, they are primarily a supplier to industry. I've not found any evidence that any of their other businesses sell to consumers. Their bread and butter is industrial products. Wanfeng did not bring any of the skills in marketing, communications and customer relations that Diamond is so in need of developing. It's the blind leading the blind.

What is surprising is that I would have expected Wanfeng to have brought manufacturing and quality control skills to Diamond. But four years on, Diamond's build times and product quality have both declined, not improved. They clearly have no control over the build process and the list of ADs continues to grow. The company has spread its limited resources over a very wide product line ranging from the DA20 to the DART. They have far too many airframe/engine combinations.

In a phone call with Scott McFadzean before he departed, he made a comment about cash flow. It seemed odd at the time that a subsidiary of a multi-billion dollar business with extensive credit lines would have cash flow issues. It's possible that Wanfeng purchased Diamond for the IP to jump start their domestic business. They feature "Wanfeng aviation town" on their website, but it looks to me like either an architect's concept rendering, or a highly Photoshopped picture. Perhaps they've constrained Diamond Europe/Canada to cash flow break even and give it the corporate equivalent of "benign neglect".
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dmloftus
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Re: Delivery. And a long story....

Post by dmloftus »

Boatguy wrote: Fri Jul 08, 2022 6:00 pm I think the problem with Wanfeng is that, apart from their real estate business, they are primarily a supplier to industry. I've not found any evidence that any of their other businesses sell to consumers. Their bread and butter is industrial products. Wanfeng did not bring any of the skills in marketing, communications and customer relations that Diamond is so in need of developing. It's the blind leading the blind.
Might be worth a few owners meeting with Wanfeng. Having previously lived in Hong Kong and having spent a tremendous amount of time in China over the past 20 years, I came to appreciate the importance of guanxi in getting things accomplished. Sometimes Chinese leaders need very explicit but polite explanations of what's important for success outside of China.
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Re: Delivery. And a long story....

Post by ememic99 »

These stories sound much worse than ones in the past when it was pretty common not to get much post-sales support from Diamond. I strongly believe that people who buy DAI's flagship product should be more vocal in expressing their dissatisfaction.
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Re: Delivery. And a long story....

Post by AndrewM »

What is likely occurring is that the Chinese owners are extracting cash from the business, creating the cash flow issue, and other knock on issues management have to deal with, and hence creating distraction...

After having lived and worked in China twice during my career, and also a company I was CEO of sold to Chinese private equity, I would almost guarantee cash is being extracted to fund other aspirational goals in the domestic Chinese market.

And stating the obvious... find it very hard to believe with such a strong order book they could be having underlying financial issues. Its not like they have idle production lines to worry about.
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Boatguy
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Re: Delivery. And a long story....

Post by Boatguy »

ememic99 wrote: Sat Jul 09, 2022 10:04 am These stories sound much worse than ones in the past when it was pretty common not to get much post-sales support from Diamond. I strongly believe that people who buy DAI's flagship product should be more vocal in expressing their dissatisfaction.
Before delivery, DAI does not want to hear from individual customers. I've tried to engage with Annemarie Heikenwälder, "Head of Sales and Marketing" in Canada, multiple times, but all I get are short responses to contact "my distributor". The distributor is not the problem and the distributor's only have what little information is provided by DAI.

Since the departure of Scott McFadzean, Diamond Canada ceased communicating with the previous Owner's Representatives. DAI never made any announcement of a management change in Canada and doesn't even acknowledge that anyone is running Canada, where most of the DA62's are built. The website lists a Chairman, CEO's for Austria, and China, and says Austro is a subsidiary of Austria but makes no mention of Canada's management.

I think the best hope for bringing DAI out of their shell and communicating with customers is the Diamond Pilots Association which is in the process of being launched and is working on establishing its relationship with DAI.
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Re: Delivery. And a long story....

Post by Donkadillapig »

Seems as we've drifted lol...
My logical upgrade path and my heart have lead me to maybe placing an order for a 62 here in the next 12 months. A natural delay has been built in by being recently post business transaction and my wife only just now growing ever more comfortable with flying....

During that delay I've been watching from the wings (pun intended) and my concern only grows. When coupled with my own experiences with the new NG.... (numerous MSBs, ADs and radio silence from Diamond)... I don't have much confidence that after spending 1.8M I'm going to fare and be treated any better.... I waved it off when I bought the NG, I rationalized I was just very lucky to own a new airplane and that I didnt know up from down. I'm not sure I could swallow that pill 300+hrs and 3X spend later....

I can't help from thinking there has to be a better, more "certain" way to achieve my goals of simply flying further, faster and in reliable fashion....
I don't know what that is? Is there any other game in town?? Do Piper treat their premium customers any better?
The long wait time is the only saving grace here really, placing a deposit would be a relatively lower risk way to "see what transpires"...
I wonder out loud if I should be having these doubts and lack of confidence in a vendor around a captial purchase of this ilk ...

No real call to action I guess on this post but I am curious about the research others might have done to end up either sticking with Diamond (or not) and if anybody would "do it again" knowing what we are learning now in 2022??
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Re: Delivery. And a long story....

Post by ememic99 »

Donkadillapig wrote: Sun Jul 10, 2022 11:46 am No real call to action I guess on this post but I am curious about the research others might have done to end up either sticking with Diamond (or not) and if anybody would "do it again" knowing what we are learning now in 2022??
There’s separate thread on forum on this topic. One of the main reasons that kept me off of switching to DA62 is what I’ve been seeing in DAI’s customer treatment for last few years. I’ll stick to my DA42, unfortunately stuck with legacy G1000 for which DAI refused to develop NXi upgrade. If and when I decide to change the aircraft DAI will have to do a good job in persuading me to remain DAI customer.
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Re: Delivery. And a long story....

Post by Colin »

To me it doesn't matter how well Piper treats their customers, I'm not going to put my family in a metal plane that can fold up around them when I make a mistake or have bad luck. I have a friend with a JetProp. I haven't been for a ride yet. I'm not sure that's a good idea for a plane, retrofitting a huge engine on an ancient airframe design.

I'd like Cirrus to start putting JetA engines on their planes and I would like them to come out with a twin.
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Re: Delivery. And a long story....

Post by Soareyes »

Donkadillapig wrote: Sun Jul 10, 2022 11:46 am Seems as we've drifted lol...

I can't help from thinking there has to be a better, more "certain" way to achieve my goals of simply flying further, faster and in reliable fashion....
I don't know what that is? Is there any other game in town??

Hmm, let me think. Diamond, Piper, seems like there is another brand that sells quite a few planes for some reason...
:)
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Previous: Hang gliders, Paraglider, DA40(x3), Cessna 150 Aerobat, SR22
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Re: Delivery. And a long story....

Post by ememic99 »

Soareyes wrote: Sun Jul 10, 2022 3:37 pm
Donkadillapig wrote: Sun Jul 10, 2022 11:46 am Seems as we've drifted lol...

I can't help from thinking there has to be a better, more "certain" way to achieve my goals of simply flying further, faster and in reliable fashion....
I don't know what that is? Is there any other game in town??

Hmm, let me think. Diamond, Piper, seems like there is another brand that sells quite a few planes for some reason...
:)
Composite? :D
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