DA40NG N907L forced landing on a highway

Any DA40 related topics

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krellis
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Re: DA40NG N907L forced landing on a highway

Post by krellis »

spr wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2023 7:33 pm I believe LIFT does their own maintenance.
Yeah, that must be the issue. Couldn’t be the ultra reliable Austro.
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Re: DA40NG N907L forced landing on a highway

Post by pete423 »

These are the ones I can find for DA40NG produced in Canada. I am sure there are more that is not reported. That is an awful lot of engine failure in flight. 3% of total produced in Canada. I am seriously starting to be concerned now.

Date Tail Serial Issue Note
12/22/2023 N445L NC214 Engine Failure In flight
12/14/2023 N970L NC262 Engine Failure In flight
06/29/2023 N44HH NC001 Engine Failure In flight
2022 N947L* NC041 Engine Failure In flight Reported on Reddit, No confirmation
2020 or 2021 N225NG* NC019 Engine Failure In flight Reported on Reddit, No confirmation
10/24/2020 N168LA NC078 Engine Failure In flight
3/25/2022 N471BL NC111 Engine Failure In flight POSSIBLE MX RELATED
9/15/2019 N292RA NC033 Engine Failure In flight POSSIBLE MX RELATED
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Boatguy
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Re: DA40NG N907L forced landing on a highway

Post by Boatguy »

pete423 wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2023 3:02 am These are the ones I can find for DA40NG produced in Canada. I am sure there are more that is not reported. That is an awful lot of engine failure in flight. 3% of total produced in Canada. I am seriously starting to be concerned now.
I like data. Can you follow up on this with a little more detail? Sources, outcomes, probable causes, injuries fatalities, etc.? How many are LIFT versus privately owned?

I have some data on fleet sizes which is slightly out of date, but attached. I think we have a pretty good idea on the number of shipments since 2021.

Austro engines began shipping in 2010. You're pretty confident in the 3% number? Or is that just DA40NGs? If it's Austro's does it matter about Canada vs Austria since the engines are all made in Austria? Shouldn't we be considering all Austro engines? DA40NG, DA42-VI (NG), and DA62? Or do you think there is something about the manufacturing in Canada that is inducing Austro failures?

Then we need a benchmark. I think we're all in agreement that no piston engine is as reliable as a turbine. To what should we compare the Austro failures? All Lycoming and Continental failures?

And then there is the airframe issue. Max Trescott recently documented a fatal Cirrus SR22T crash when the pilot and CFI decided to put down in a field without the parachute. Reading between the lines, they died in the post crash fire. Do we compare accidents, injuries, or fatalities? What if there was nothing that qualified as an NTSB accident. It was probably still an emergency from the perspective of the PIC.

You raise a concern that every Diamond owner shares and we all would like to know how Diamond / Austro measures up against the alternative piston aircraft. Thank you for your work and I look forward to gaining a better understanding of how Diamonds measure up.
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Diamond Global fleet.xlsx
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Rich
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Re: DA40NG N907L forced landing on a highway

Post by Rich »

Boatguy wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2023 4:12 am I like data. Can you follow up on this with a little more detail? Sources, outcomes, probable causes, injuries fatalities, etc.? How many are LIFT versus privately owned?

I have some data on fleet sizes which is slightly out of date, but attached. I think we have a pretty good idea on the number of shipments since 2021.

Austro engines began shipping in 2010. You're pretty confident in the 3% number? Or is that just DA40NGs? If it's Austro's does it matter about Canada vs Austria since the engines are all made in Austria? Shouldn't we be considering all Austro engines? DA40NG, DA42-VI (NG), and DA62? Or do you think there is something about the manufacturing in Canada that is inducing Austro failures?

Then we need a benchmark. I think we're all in agreement that no piston engine is as reliable as a turbine. To what should we compare the Austro failures? All Lycoming and Continental failures?

And then there is the airframe issue. Max Trescott recently documented a fatal Cirrus SR22T crash when the pilot and CFI decided to put down in a field without the parachute. Reading between the lines, they died in the post crash fire. Do we compare accidents, injuries, or fatalities? What if there was nothing that qualified as an NTSB accident. It was probably still an emergency from the perspective of the PIC.

You raise a concern that every Diamond owner shares and we all would like to know how Diamond / Austro measures up against the alternative piston aircraft. Thank you for your work and I look forward to gaining a better understanding of how Diamonds measure up.
Here’s some researched data on various engines: https://www.avweb.com/flight-safety/acc ... avoidable/
2002 DA40-180: MT, PowerFlow, 530W/430W, KAP140, ext. baggage, 1090 ES out, 2646 MTOW, 40gal., Surefly, Flightstream 210, Orion 600 LED, XeVision, Aspen E5
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Re: DA40NG N907L forced landing on a highway

Post by pete423 »

I agree we need to have a closer look and compile more detailed/accurate data. The 3% number is for DA40NG made in Canada that had an engine failure in flight in the US. It does not include the ROW production and failures. 8 incidents that I can find with some 260 (from serial no) or so airframes. Here is an article by AVweb in 2020 for lycoming and continental failures. It is about 1.15 per 1000 for continental and .91 per 1000 for lycoming. The method I am using is crude as the data for AVweb only includes accident reported and the data for the NG includes all the incidents I can find. Still, 3% vs .1% is a large discrepancy. Again, I am not trying to start an Austro vs Lycoming debate. I own a single engine NG and I am very concerned. I can live with a .1% engine failure rate which can be further reduced by proper preflight and maintenance. I cannot live with a 3% engine failure rate. That is way too much risk.

https://www.avweb.com/flight-safety/acc ... avoidable/
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Re: DA40NG N907L forced landing on a highway

Post by Boatguy »

Everyone in this forum who flies behind an Austro shares your concerns. I don’t view your concern as Austro vs Lycoming vs Continental. There are lots of things that cause a plane to crash and people to be injured or die. LOC, CFIT, fuel starvation, RLOC, EFATO, fire after crash, etc.

The question is how a Diamond with an Austro engine compares to other airframes, most of which have a Lycoming or Continental engine. Are we increasing our risk vs a Baron, Bonanza, PA-xx, Cxxx, SRxx, etc.? Are we about the same, or safer?

The AvWeb 0.1% is based on NTSB reports. If that is our benchmark, then let’s normalize the numerators. What are the NTSB database numbers for Diamonds with Austro engines?
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Re: DA40NG N907L forced landing on a hig

Post by Mjwatlanta »

All of this talk about the unreliability of the Astro engine is clearly concerning to all of us. The idea that 3% of these engines fail is unbelievably concerning. But, it did compel me, as our friend the Boatguy said, to look at the data. So I went to the NTSB website and did a search for Diamond and NG. There is not a single accident report that was serious enough to have a NTSB investigation that concerns me about the safety of my engine and my airplane. The majority of the failures were simply pilot error. The only other failures, except for the still unknown Asheville failure, was patently bad maintenance. One involved a probable safety wire that likely got into the combustion chamber and scarred the pistons. Another involved a non-Diamond part that failed. And yet another involved maintenance done the day before the event in which the airplane was not put back together properly. So, when I put my family in my airplane, knowing that it has original equipment parts, maintenance that is trustworthy, an oil analysis that, according to Blackstone, is well ahead of other engines of like hours, I feel pretty good about it. Furthermore, I am confident that if there is a failure, it is pretty unlikely that my family and I will die by fire - unless there is an outside insult like occurred in Asheville – either the powerline or at tractor trailer impact to the airplane. Even in Asheville, the pilot and passenger escaped without burn injuries. It is certainly easy to throw out data, but I think we should focus on data that is serious enough to result in incidents investigated by the NTSB. Otherwise, we are comparing a body of anecdotal evidence that we have acquired for Austria engines to the NTSB data relating to avgas engines. That’s not a fair comparison and does not help us make good decisions about safety.

I certainly have not spent hours on this analysis and am not in any way intending to stifle this concern. Anecdotal evidence is, after all, evidence. However, I don’t think we can compare anecdotal data to statistical data fairly. Thus, the .1% gas engine failure rate is not applicable as a measure against which Austro engines are compared until we adjust it for the anecdotal knowledge that we all have of our friends, colleagues, and rumors we have heard that we have heard about in-flight failures that turned out to be non-events for gas engines and adjust the data accordingly.
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Re: DA40NG N907L forced landing on a hig

Post by Mdm0515 »

To me the issue remains the opacity of communication from Diamond/Austro. All consumers feel better when they know causes and instances. If issues arise and manufacturer addresses and communicates the resolution its one hell of a lot better than having people go scan NTSB db's and hoping they pick up on any semblance of the total universe of issues. NTSB does not attend every engine-out incident so is by definition an incomplete list of engine failure reporting. If the binary information sought is death then yes NTSB is your source. Otherwise, Diamond should just be completely transparent. If that means publicly calling out bad maintenance practices by a shop somewhere then so be it. What's the alternative? A MX operation contributes to a failure and has no sanction and no one knows about it?






Mjwatlanta wrote: Mon Dec 25, 2023 6:01 pm All of this talk about the unreliability of the Astro engine is clearly concerning to all of us. The idea that 3% of these engines fail is unbelievably concerning. But, it did compel me, as our friend the Boatguy said, to look at the data. So I went to the NTSB website and did a search for Diamond and NG. There is not a single accident report that was serious enough to have a NTSB investigation that concerns me about the safety of my engine and my airplane. The majority of the failures were simply pilot error. The only other failures, except for the still unknown Asheville failure, was patently bad maintenance. One involved a probable safety wire that likely got into the combustion chamber and scarred the pistons. Another involved a non-Diamond part that failed. And yet another involved maintenance done the day before the event in which the airplane was not put back together properly. So, when I put my family in my airplane, knowing that it has original equipment parts, maintenance that is trustworthy, an oil analysis that, according to Blackstone, is well ahead of other engines of like hours, I feel pretty good about it. Furthermore, I am confident that if there is a failure, it is pretty unlikely that my family and I will die by fire - unless there is an outside insult like occurred in Asheville – either the powerline or at tractor trailer impact to the airplane. Even in Asheville, the pilot and passenger escaped without burn injuries. It is certainly easy to throw out data, but I think we should focus on data that is serious enough to result in incidents investigated by the NTSB. Otherwise, we are comparing a body of anecdotal evidence that we have acquired for Austria engines to the NTSB data relating to avgas engines. That’s not a fair comparison and does not help us make good decisions about safety.

I certainly have not spent hours on this analysis and am not in any way intending to stifle this concern. Anecdotal evidence is, after all, evidence. However, I don’t think we can compare anecdotal data to statistical data fairly. Thus, the .1% gas engine failure rate is not applicable as a measure against which Austro engines are compared until we adjust it for the anecdotal knowledge that we all have of our friends, colleagues, and rumors we have heard that we have heard about in-flight failures that turned out to be non-events for gas engines and adjust the data accordingly.
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Re: DA40NG N907L forced landing on a highway

Post by haykinson »

In the discussion about communication from the airframe and engine manufacturers, I wonder how common it is to get clarity from other companies. Apart from part-ownership of ancient airframes, the Diamond is the only airplane I'd owned solely and (currently) as a brand new airplane. I agree that communication is pretty minimal / nonexistent, and both pre- and post-sales involvement by Diamond is amateur. But I don't know if maybe this is the norm?

For those of you who've owned other airplanes, is the grass really greener?
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Re: DA40NG N907L forced landing on a highway

Post by dant »

I've also only owned a Diamond, but I would be shocked if transparency were a common practice given the litigious nature of aviation accidents.
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