Asking your opinion about my judgment
Moderators: Rick, Lance Murray
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Asking your opinion about my judgment
Hello folks
Recently the same event happened to me as "Fuel mystery" posted last year by bd32332.
It was IFR training flights with 2 students.
Before departure Left Fuel 18 gal, Right 14 gal for my order fuel 34 gal, and set the fuel totalizer 32 gal.
I noticed it was a bigger difference than usual but I didn't believe them quite and took off my home airport.
After 65 minutes flight, at neighboring airport, I found Left 16 gal, Right 7 gal and the totalizer 23 gal.
As I thought it was not just a indication problem,but actual fuel imbalance occurred.
I tested to turn the R Fuel selector X feed for a while on the ground.
I confirmed normal X feed operation and put it back on, then took off.
Soon after take off I kept R Fuel selector X feed except take off and landing.
After another 65 minutes flight, I found the L fuel 6 gal, R fuel 6 gal.
I asked mechanics to check the fuel feed operation but they couldn't find any problem so far.
Because I took off from the neighboring airport with exceeding fuel imbalance limit of 5 gal and without any maintenance action,
I am suspended om my flight instructor privilege.
This is not a private operation but in a business operation.
I just want to know the opinions about my judgment and actions from pilots around the world.
Recently the same event happened to me as "Fuel mystery" posted last year by bd32332.
It was IFR training flights with 2 students.
Before departure Left Fuel 18 gal, Right 14 gal for my order fuel 34 gal, and set the fuel totalizer 32 gal.
I noticed it was a bigger difference than usual but I didn't believe them quite and took off my home airport.
After 65 minutes flight, at neighboring airport, I found Left 16 gal, Right 7 gal and the totalizer 23 gal.
As I thought it was not just a indication problem,but actual fuel imbalance occurred.
I tested to turn the R Fuel selector X feed for a while on the ground.
I confirmed normal X feed operation and put it back on, then took off.
Soon after take off I kept R Fuel selector X feed except take off and landing.
After another 65 minutes flight, I found the L fuel 6 gal, R fuel 6 gal.
I asked mechanics to check the fuel feed operation but they couldn't find any problem so far.
Because I took off from the neighboring airport with exceeding fuel imbalance limit of 5 gal and without any maintenance action,
I am suspended om my flight instructor privilege.
This is not a private operation but in a business operation.
I just want to know the opinions about my judgment and actions from pilots around the world.
- Rich
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Re: Asking your opinion about my judgment
I'm looking at what I grabbed for the NG AFM and it shows a maximum imbalance of 9 gallons. This is consistent with the DA40-180 max imbalance of 10 gallons (diesel/jet-a being more dense). Does the business have more strict limitations for some reason?
2002 DA40-180: MT, PowerFlow, 530W/430W, KAP140, ext. baggage, 1090 ES out, 2646 MTOW, 40gal., Surefly, Flightstream 210, Orion 600 LED, XeVision, Aspen E5
- Steve D
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Re: Asking your opinion about my judgment
The max imbalance for a DA42 TDi is 5 Gals per AFM. There is a placard in the cockpit to this effect.
I would have thought the same limitations would be true for the DA42 NG.
No idea why the DA40 could have a significantly higher imbalance limit.
The DA42TDi doesn't have fuel pumps like the NG. The only way to correct a fuel imbalance in the TDi is to burn off the fuel by running the engine in cross feed mode (or manually drain the excess ).
Can you use the fuel pumps in the NG to transfer fuel via cross feed to the other tank while you are on the ground?
For the record, I have never had an imbalance of more than 2 gallons. The fuel gauges sometime show different levels between 18 and 15 gallons but from 15 gals and lower, they are normally in sync. The fuel totalizer is pretty accurate.
I would have thought the same limitations would be true for the DA42 NG.
No idea why the DA40 could have a significantly higher imbalance limit.
The DA42TDi doesn't have fuel pumps like the NG. The only way to correct a fuel imbalance in the TDi is to burn off the fuel by running the engine in cross feed mode (or manually drain the excess ).
Can you use the fuel pumps in the NG to transfer fuel via cross feed to the other tank while you are on the ground?
For the record, I have never had an imbalance of more than 2 gallons. The fuel gauges sometime show different levels between 18 and 15 gallons but from 15 gals and lower, they are normally in sync. The fuel totalizer is pretty accurate.
Steve Dewsbery
CPL IR NR
Johannesburg, South Africa
CPL IR NR
Johannesburg, South Africa
- Rich
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Re: Asking your opinion about my judgment
Oops. My response was a bit off-topic. Because the OP has an DA40 NG listed as "his" aircraft, I presumed we were talking about that type of plane. Of course, this is a DA42 forum, so, my apologies.
I believe the DA40 tanks, BTW, to be closer to the center of the airplane.
I believe the DA40 tanks, BTW, to be closer to the center of the airplane.
2002 DA40-180: MT, PowerFlow, 530W/430W, KAP140, ext. baggage, 1090 ES out, 2646 MTOW, 40gal., Surefly, Flightstream 210, Orion 600 LED, XeVision, Aspen E5
- Steve D
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Re: Asking your opinion about my judgment
Of course. Makes sense. The 42's main tanks are outboard of the engines.
Steve Dewsbery
CPL IR NR
Johannesburg, South Africa
CPL IR NR
Johannesburg, South Africa
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Re: Asking your opinion about my judgment
To Steve
Thank you for the information of TDI. Our DA 42 is modified from TDI.
Although DA has 2 fuel pumps for each engine, X feed operation while fuel pumps running may cause damage the high pressure pump according to the AFM, so X feed operation while normal condition is same as for TDI.
Later Mechanics advised me I should have refuel only on lower side to balance instead of draining fuel from higher side.
I should have called mechanics or discussed with students to find better solutions.
It was a very hot day and no air conditioning in our DA42.
Instructor’s self-righteousness superseded all other ideas and even this limitation.
Thank you for the information of TDI. Our DA 42 is modified from TDI.
Although DA has 2 fuel pumps for each engine, X feed operation while fuel pumps running may cause damage the high pressure pump according to the AFM, so X feed operation while normal condition is same as for TDI.
Later Mechanics advised me I should have refuel only on lower side to balance instead of draining fuel from higher side.
I should have called mechanics or discussed with students to find better solutions.
It was a very hot day and no air conditioning in our DA42.
Instructor’s self-righteousness superseded all other ideas and even this limitation.
- rkaplan
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Re: Asking your opinion about my judgment
As long as you reported the situation accurately and have expressed an ongoing interest in how to handle this safely in the future, I think your attitude is pro-safety and your employer's is not.
Cockpit resource management does not only involve pilot/copilot.
If your employer reacts in this way then future pilots will be discouraged from discussing or reporting situations. That would be very much undesirable.
Cockpit resource management does not only involve pilot/copilot.
If your employer reacts in this way then future pilots will be discouraged from discussing or reporting situations. That would be very much undesirable.
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Re: Asking your opinion about my judgment
Thank you, Richard (Rakaplan) for your kind response.
Soon after flight I logged in the log book exactly my judgment and actions. I thought it is easier to find the cause for fuel feeding problem.
The regulation of my country states air carriers or even flight school must report to in any minor event such as exceeding lateral balance limit.
Official people blamed me and company that I didn't ask before return flight.
Then this minor event that I had thought became a big bad event.
I did it for pro-safety for the future operation as you said.
The conclusion is such punishment on me.
I am wondering who can open up 100% true in case they make mistake.
Soon after flight I logged in the log book exactly my judgment and actions. I thought it is easier to find the cause for fuel feeding problem.
The regulation of my country states air carriers or even flight school must report to in any minor event such as exceeding lateral balance limit.
Official people blamed me and company that I didn't ask before return flight.
Then this minor event that I had thought became a big bad event.
I did it for pro-safety for the future operation as you said.
The conclusion is such punishment on me.
I am wondering who can open up 100% true in case they make mistake.
- ultraturtle
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Re: Asking your opinion about my judgment
Strongly recommend you point your organization to the Aviation Safety Action Program (ASAP) initiative, a collaboration between the FAA, Certificate Holders, and Labor Groups that laser focuses on safety while providing protections for individuals making well intentioned mistakes: https://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/asap/
- ultraturtle
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Re: Asking your opinion about my judgment
I didn't mean to suggest in the previous post that this could help you out of your current situation, only that if Japan's Aviation Authority does not already have a similar process in place, that they should, and if they do, your organization should be a part of it.
It is impossible to count the lives saved per 100,000 flying hours in the USA by having such a process in place, simply because not a single life has been lost having flown over 8 billion folks by Airline Certificate Holders participating in ASAP. The predecessor to ASAP, ASRS is still a thing, open to pilots not flying for ASAP participants, and provides similar potential of immunity for pilots trying to do the right thing but making a mistake.
It is impossible to count the lives saved per 100,000 flying hours in the USA by having such a process in place, simply because not a single life has been lost having flown over 8 billion folks by Airline Certificate Holders participating in ASAP. The predecessor to ASAP, ASRS is still a thing, open to pilots not flying for ASAP participants, and provides similar potential of immunity for pilots trying to do the right thing but making a mistake.