Considering switch to Hartzell 2-Blade Prop from MT

Any DA40 related topics

Moderators: Rick, Lance Murray

User avatar
blsewardjr
4 Diamonds Member
4 Diamonds Member
Posts: 485
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:19 pm
First Name: Bernie
Aircraft Type: DA40
Aircraft Registration: N377DS
Airports: KCHO
Has thanked: 118 times
Been thanked: 146 times

Re: Considering switch to Hartzell 2-Blade Prop from MT

Post by blsewardjr »

As Rich notes, one reason not to get the Hartzell composite is price. I recently saw a used one advertised for $17.5K. Thanks, CFIDave for re-posting the Diamond Aircraft comparison of props. Having gone from the original MT to the Hartzell aluminum, I agree with the performance gains and durability claimed but NOT the vibration ones. In fact, I'm now looking to go back to the new MT if I can find one at a reasonable price. I think it helps that the MT prop is used in a number of applications while the Hartzell composite seems to be used only on the DA40.
Bernie Seward, IR, AGI
2003 DA40 N377DS
KCHO Charlottesville, VA
User avatar
Rich
5 Diamonds Member
5 Diamonds Member
Posts: 4592
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:40 pm
First Name: Rich
Aircraft Type: DA40
Aircraft Registration: N40XE
Airports: S39 Prineville OR
Has thanked: 145 times
Been thanked: 1180 times

Re: Considering switch to Hartzell 2-Blade Prop from MT

Post by Rich »

I did come up with a current price list for Hartzell props. If I interpret correctly, in round numbers: AL - $15K, Composite: $27K
2002 DA40-180: MT, PowerFlow, 530W/430W, KAP140, ext. baggage, 1090 ES out, 2646 MTOW, 40gal., Surefly, Flightstream 210, Orion 600 LED, XeVision, Aspen E5
User avatar
blsewardjr
4 Diamonds Member
4 Diamonds Member
Posts: 485
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:19 pm
First Name: Bernie
Aircraft Type: DA40
Aircraft Registration: N377DS
Airports: KCHO
Has thanked: 118 times
Been thanked: 146 times

Re: Considering switch to Hartzell 2-Blade Prop from MT

Post by blsewardjr »

Hard to find an MT price list but I did see one from Van's where the MT prop used on the DA40 is $15K.
Bernie Seward, IR, AGI
2003 DA40 N377DS
KCHO Charlottesville, VA
User avatar
Rich
5 Diamonds Member
5 Diamonds Member
Posts: 4592
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:40 pm
First Name: Rich
Aircraft Type: DA40
Aircraft Registration: N40XE
Airports: S39 Prineville OR
Has thanked: 145 times
Been thanked: 1180 times

Re: Considering switch to Hartzell 2-Blade Prop from MT

Post by Rich »

blsewardjr wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 4:32 pm Hard to find an MT price list but I did see one from Van's where the MT prop used on the DA40 is $15K.
I poked around and saw a number of MT conversions and other models of MT with larger blades in that price range.

They are expensive to ship. This would be the case with any > 2 blade prop. There are 2 shops here on the West Coast that can do overhauls within a several hour drive. It's more cost-effective to put the prop in my pickup and make 2 round trips to either one to have them do the overhaul. In fact it's more cost-effective to fly the plane to NW Propeller at KPLU, leave it, rent a car one-way and reverse the process when it's done. :D
2002 DA40-180: MT, PowerFlow, 530W/430W, KAP140, ext. baggage, 1090 ES out, 2646 MTOW, 40gal., Surefly, Flightstream 210, Orion 600 LED, XeVision, Aspen E5
User avatar
blsewardjr
4 Diamonds Member
4 Diamonds Member
Posts: 485
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:19 pm
First Name: Bernie
Aircraft Type: DA40
Aircraft Registration: N377DS
Airports: KCHO
Has thanked: 118 times
Been thanked: 146 times

Re: Considering switch to Hartzell 2-Blade Prop from MT

Post by blsewardjr »

For those of you who have swapped props, were you able to trade-in your old prop? My Hartzell aluminum (2nd gen) is 10 years old, 900 hours, but I'd like to get something for it.
Bernie Seward, IR, AGI
2003 DA40 N377DS
KCHO Charlottesville, VA
User avatar
dant
4 Diamonds Member
4 Diamonds Member
Posts: 274
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2021 4:45 am
First Name: Dan
Aircraft Type: DA40
Aircraft Registration: N787DM
Airports: KPAE
Has thanked: 49 times
Been thanked: 59 times

Re: Considering switch to Hartzell 2-Blade Prop from MT

Post by dant »

A 4 dB increase indicates a sound pressure 2.5 times the lower number.
Well, what matters is perceptual, and while there are a lot of dB scales, the one I'm familiar with is 10 dB is considered "twice as loud" to a person. So while 4 dB is not nothing, 2.5x is overselling it a bit.

Regarding the 3 blade prop, I had heard that it was prone to vibration induced cracks that allowed leakage in to the wood core, and that it was to be avoided.
User avatar
Rich
5 Diamonds Member
5 Diamonds Member
Posts: 4592
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:40 pm
First Name: Rich
Aircraft Type: DA40
Aircraft Registration: N40XE
Airports: S39 Prineville OR
Has thanked: 145 times
Been thanked: 1180 times

Re: Considering switch to Hartzell 2-Blade Prop from MT

Post by Rich »

dant wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 7:16 pm Regarding the 3 blade prop, I had heard that it was prone to vibration induced cracks that allowed leakage in to the wood core, and that it was to be avoided.
The first I heard of that. What has been known to rarely happen is damage to the trailing edge of the MT prop blades. This will allow water into the wood core. This is thought to be a result of installation/removal of the cowling scraping against the blades. Never happened to me.

But vibration? A little history: At the time the Powerflow became available for the DA40 there were 2 props available for the plane. Hartzell wouldn’t certify its prop in combination with it and had to develop the heavier version. The original MT was approved without modification. And even now ONLY the MT is used with any of the diesels.
2002 DA40-180: MT, PowerFlow, 530W/430W, KAP140, ext. baggage, 1090 ES out, 2646 MTOW, 40gal., Surefly, Flightstream 210, Orion 600 LED, XeVision, Aspen E5
User avatar
Karl
4 Diamonds Member
4 Diamonds Member
Posts: 317
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 3:58 am
First Name: Karl
Aircraft Type: DA40
Airports:
Has thanked: 68 times
Been thanked: 102 times

Re: Considering switch to Hartzell 2-Blade Prop from MT

Post by Karl »

Rich wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:25 pm My CG is well forward in the envelope (typical of the round-gauge models) and the heavier prop would make it significantly more so. Of course If you have one of the later models with the CG further aft then the shift forward might actually be helpful.
If your forward CG is restrictive there is an SB available to put weight in the tail and move it further aft. Of course, the downside is it adds weight.

Our fleet was originally 1.7 TAE engines, now with the CD135 engine and other mods the CG was creeping too far forward so we have started to carry out the SB to move them back to where it was when it left the factory.
User avatar
Rich
5 Diamonds Member
5 Diamonds Member
Posts: 4592
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:40 pm
First Name: Rich
Aircraft Type: DA40
Aircraft Registration: N40XE
Airports: S39 Prineville OR
Has thanked: 145 times
Been thanked: 1180 times

Re: Considering switch to Hartzell 2-Blade Prop from MT

Post by Rich »

Karl wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 2:34 am
Rich wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:25 pm My CG is well forward in the envelope (typical of the round-gauge models) and the heavier prop would make it significantly more so. Of course If you have one of the later models with the CG further aft then the shift forward might actually be helpful.
If your forward CG is restrictive there is an SB available to put weight in the tail and move it further aft. Of course, the downside is it adds weight.

Our fleet was originally 1.7 TAE engines, now with the CD135 engine and other mods the CG was creeping too far forward so we have started to carry out the SB to move them back to where it was when it left the factory.
Given my body weight it’s fine the way it is and the forward CG allows me to load LOTS of stuff in the rear seats and baggage areas. In reality there’s a bit of this and that lurking in the baggage areas all the time. Given that reality, my budget for front seats with no additional passengers/baggage is me + 220 lb. There’s no way I would permanently install dead weight in the plane to adjust it.
2002 DA40-180: MT, PowerFlow, 530W/430W, KAP140, ext. baggage, 1090 ES out, 2646 MTOW, 40gal., Surefly, Flightstream 210, Orion 600 LED, XeVision, Aspen E5
User avatar
briankelly327
3 Diamonds Member
3 Diamonds Member
Posts: 54
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 11:09 pm
First Name: Brian
Aircraft Type: DA40
Aircraft Registration: N633DS
Airports: KCDW
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 11 times

Re: Considering switch to Hartzell 2-Blade Prop from MT

Post by briankelly327 »

I recently upgraded from the 2006 metal prop to the powerflow compatible hartzel metal prop.

Powerflow sells the props with their exhaust, and their price was $2-4k better than going to Hartzell direct. I justified it bc I wanted powerflow, the prop deal was great, and my prop that came with the plane had 3,000+ hours and was overdue for an overhaul.

Choice between props for me was easy, mostly bc I was accustomed to the vibrations and durability of the existing metal prop (it was problem free), and the cost of the composite was so much higher.

I was able to get $6k total for old exhaust and old prop, offsetting part of the purchase.

Most interesting to me and for anyone thinking about powerflow - I improved fuel flow by almost 3gph at the same speed (~140-144kts). At current fuel prices, this is more than $2k per year of fuel savings (and ~400 gallons of hydrocarbon not emitted into atmosphere).

With the increased resale value having powerflow, a fuel savings, unspent overhaul costs, and existing part sales, I feel confident it’s an NPV positive upgrade, that also happens to improve climb and top speed if I wanted it.

Composite prop is likely smoother, but the cost is high. And anything that gets you into a power flow is good.
Post Reply