What's the DA40 NG's ceiling?

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CFIDave
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Re: What's the DA40 NG's ceiling?

Post by CFIDave »

da50speed wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:42 pmDiamond should advertise this fact of the DA62 having flown at FL30 and merely disclaimer it was a professional test, closed course, do not attempt, yadda yadda to cover their butt. But it's an impressive fact worth knowing.
I wouldn't promote the ability to fly an unpressurized plane at such a high altitude. If your O2 system were to fail at 30,000 feet, you'd have only about 2 minutes of useful consciousness, and likely couldn't descend rapidly enough to avoid hypoxia. That's why pressurized aircraft that fly that high include "quick don" O2 masks for the flight crew.

I have a "personal minimum" that I won't fly my DA62 solo on O2 at altitudes where my judgment is likely to become impaired if the O2 system were to fail without my knowledge. However with 2 people onboard I can fly higher, since there's a reasonable chance that the second person would notice the first person to suffer from hypoxia, and do something about it.
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Re: What's the DA40 NG's ceiling?

Post by da50speed »

CFIDave wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:56 pm
da50speed wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:42 pmDiamond should advertise this fact of the DA62 having flown at FL30 and merely disclaimer it was a professional test, closed course, do not attempt, yadda yadda to cover their butt. But it's an impressive fact worth knowing.
I wouldn't promote the ability to fly an unpressurized plane at such a high altitude. If your O2 system were to fail at 30,000 feet, you'd have only about 2 minutes of useful consciousness, and likely couldn't descend rapidly enough to avoid hypoxia. That's why pressurized aircraft that fly that high include "quick don" O2 masks for the flight crew.

I have a "personal minimum" that I won't fly my DA62 solo on O2 at altitudes where my judgment is likely to become impaired if the O2 system were to fail without my knowledge. However with 2 people onboard I can fly higher, since there's a reasonable chance that the second person would notice the first person to suffer from hypoxia, and do something about it.
Good point. I'm really surprised Diamond doesn't offer a panel mount pulse oximeter as an option on the DA62. There's space on the panel for it. The Cessna TTx has one standard.

CFIDave, while I have you, I'm curious about your progression from DA40 to DA42 to DA62. Did you end up doing that because someone was making it very easy to trade-in and step up to the next higher model? Feel free to shoot me a PM if you prefer. I have my sights on a new DA50 RG, but have been contemplating maybe going with a DA40 NG for a year before stepping up to the 50. The 50 likely couldn't even be delivered for at least one year anyway as it sounds like first customer deliveries will be July 2022 and the list will be a mile long, so probably a Dec 2022 delivery on a DA50 for those of us who don't want to have to enter the boxing ring to get one of the first.
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Re: What's the DA40 NG's ceiling?

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Re: What's the DA40 NG's ceiling?

Post by AndrewM »

the list will be a mile long, so probably a Dec 2022 delivery on a DA50 for those of us who don't want to have to enter the boxing ring to get one of the first.
Is anyone aware of any DA50's pre-ordered here in the US as yet?

While I love the DA products, I still struggle to see how the DA50 will be a big seller given the market segment, but I guess we will see...

Sorry for the thread drift!
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Re: What's the DA40 NG's ceiling?

Post by da50speed »

AndrewM wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:44 am
the list will be a mile long, so probably a Dec 2022 delivery on a DA50 for those of us who don't want to have to enter the boxing ring to get one of the first.
Is anyone aware of any DA50's pre-ordered here in the US as yet?

While I love the DA products, I still struggle to see how the DA50 will be a big seller given the market segment, but I guess we will see...

Sorry for the thread drift!
Pre-orders for the DA50 begin on July 26.
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Re: What's the DA40 NG's ceiling?

Post by OliverBucher »

CFIDave wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:23 pm The DA40NG's maximum operating altitude is 16,400 feet -- the same as the Lycoming DA40. This is the maximum altitude that Diamond test pilots demonstrated during certification testing. If you fly above this, you'll be your own "test pilot." :) It's really no different from a plane's published maximum cross-wind; the plane may exceed that limit, but factory test pilots only demonstrated the certified number.

But maximum operating altitude is not the same thing as the plane's service ceiling, which as Steve pointed out is defined as the altitude where a single-engine piston aircraft will only climb at 100 fpm (200 fpm for a twin, 500 fpm for a jet). I would expect the turbocharged DA40NG to have a service ceiling of more than 20,000 feet. But I wouldn't suggest flying that high, since it's very cold up there and you'll need to wear a mask instead of a cannula for O2.

For comparison, the DA62 has a maximum operating altitude of 20,000 feet. I know DA62 pilots who've climbed higher than that to top bad weather, and the DA62 (or DA42-VI) is climbing at least 700-800 fpm at that altitude. I've read that during development, Diamond test pilots successfully flew a DA62 above 30,000 feet, so its service ceiling is considerably higher than 20,000 feet.
Hello,
I think the statement regarding the maximum flight altitude is wrong.
In general, Diamond has certified the aircraft up to 5000m or 16400ft. Because in the "Type Certificate Data Sheets (TCDS)" the maximum operaitonal altitiude is stated as 16,400ft. Therefore this is a limit.
On the subject of crosswind, the manual states, maximum demonstrated crosswind component.
The maximum operating altitude is in the TCDS at EASA and FAA under "Technical Characteristics and Operational Limitations" therefore it is a limit like the maximum takeoff weight, C.G. positions, etc. You cannot say that it is only a recommendation.
It is also written in the flight manual in the recognized chapter 2 "Operational Limits".
I am also aware that a DA40 (even with Lycoming) can go higher than 16.400ft (especially if it is light :) ).
It is also important to note that the DA40 has no limitations on Vne in terms of altitude. However, due to the increasing TAS to IAS at altitude, above 16,400ft the Vne may have to be reduced as IAS due to flutter. Even if this is rather academic :)

I just wanted to mention this, because in your article one could think that the maximum flight altitude has only something to do with the verification of the certification-tests and therefore would have to be considered the same as the maximum verified crosswind component (this is not a limit - but there are certainly discussions with the insurance company in case of an accident). However, the maximum flight altitude is a limit specified in the type certificate like e.g. the maximum take-off mass.

With flying greetings
Oliver
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Re: What's the DA40 NG's ceiling?

Post by Rich »

OliverBucher wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:04 pm Hello,
I think the statement regarding the maximum flight altitude is wrong.
In general, Diamond has certified the aircraft up to 5000m or 16400ft. Because in the "Type Certificate Data Sheets (TCDS)" the maximum operaitonal altitiude is stated as 16,400ft. Therefore this is a limit.
On the subject of crosswind, the manual states, maximum demonstrated crosswind component.
The maximum operating altitude is in the TCDS at EASA and FAA under "Technical Characteristics and Operational Limitations" therefore it is a limit like the maximum takeoff weight, C.G. positions, etc. You cannot say that it is only a recommendation.
It is also written in the flight manual in the recognized chapter 2 "Operational Limits".
I am also aware that a DA40 (even with Lycoming) can go higher than 16.400ft (especially if it is light :) ).
It is also important to note that the DA40 has no limitations on Vne in terms of altitude. However, due to the increasing TAS to IAS at altitude, above 16,400ft the Vne may have to be reduced as IAS due to flutter. Even if this is rather academic :)

I just wanted to mention this, because in your article one could think that the maximum flight altitude has only something to do with the verification of the certification-tests and therefore would have to be considered the same as the maximum verified crosswind component (this is not a limit - but there are certainly discussions with the insurance company in case of an accident). However, the maximum flight altitude is a limit specified in the type certificate like e.g. the maximum take-off mass.

With flying greetings
Oliver
Cool. Since the actual wording in the AFM for my Lycoming says "The maximum demonstrated operating altitude is 16,400 ft (5,000 m)." I'm good to go.
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Re: What's the DA40 NG's ceiling?

Post by OliverBucher »

Hello,
yes that is already confusing.
However, the Maximum Operational Altitude is legally a limitation. This is stated in the Type Certificate.
The POH also states a maximum altitude (also demonstrated) of 16,400ft. However, the 16,400ft is a limit because it is under Chapter 2 Limitations.
There are all the things as restrictions, which are also shown in the Type Certificat as frame points of the aircraft. The Type Certiface is always number 1 when it comes to the operating limits of an aircraft, as this is the basis for certification.
Attached is the FAA and EASA Type Certicate of the DA40. The EASA version is a older version, due to the newest is with all appendixes and therefore to large.

Greetings Oliver

PS: Please excuse my English. Unfortunately my school English is not sufficient for such things, therefore I write with DeepL.com :)
Attachments
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Re: What's the DA40 NG's ceiling?

Post by Rich »

Interestingly, looking at the type certificate, notice what it NOT there: The 14,000 ft. nonsense.

In the US, pilots are not required to have any knowledge of the contents of the Type Certificate, only the AFM and assorted placards and subsequent Flight Manual Supplements. The inclusion of "demonstrated" makes is a squishy statement subject to interpretation. It was eliminated in the NG manual, so it's a harder argument in that case, should it come up. In the US, ATC is not looking up your Type Certificate to see whether they can clear you into the flight levels.

I'll give a concrete example of a case where a friend of mine operated my PA28 outside the limits of the flight manual:

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/Repor ... L&IType=LA

There was no enforcement action taken against my friend. No problem raised by the insurance company in paying off the totaled aircraft.

For me, this is a fairly academic point. The difference between 16,400 ft. and the bottom of the flight levels is pretty small and unlikely to become a factor. For the NG pilots it could be a more realistic consideration.
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Re: What's the DA40 NG's ceiling?

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