What's the DA40 NG's ceiling?

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da50speed
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What's the DA40 NG's ceiling?

Post by da50speed »

Diamond's website and brochure say it's 16,400 MSL. But online I'm seeing that the DA40's ceiling was stated as 16,400 MSL over a decade ago even before the turbocharger, so how can that be? Has anyone ever had a DA40 NG higher than FL16? Also, what's the climb rate like through the flight levels? I hear it climbs nicely at 1,000 fpm near SL, but what's that climb rate reduce to once you're a 10,000 feet or above?

Thanks in advance!
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Steve
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Re: What's the DA40 NG's ceiling?

Post by Steve »

Well, by definition, the Service Ceiling is that altitude at which the specified aircraft can climb at a rate of not greater than 100 feet per minute. The few times I've done climbs starting at 9-10K, I set the autopilot at 2-300 feet per minute climb rate. I've not had the airplane above 14K. Of course, I wasn't at Max Gross...
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Rich
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Re: What's the DA40 NG's ceiling?

Post by Rich »

Diamond doesn't actually refer to service ceiling. Instead they publish "maximum operating altitude". Looking at the POH for the NG it shows ROC at 16,400 ft. pressure altitude varying between 360 and 600 FPM, depending on weight and Density Altitude at that 16400 PA.

Likely at least some of the flight instruments, as with the DA40, are only certified to 20,000 ft.
Last edited by Rich on Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What's the DA40 NG's ceiling?

Post by CFIDave »

The DA40NG's maximum operating altitude is 16,400 feet -- the same as the Lycoming DA40. This is the maximum altitude that Diamond test pilots demonstrated during certification testing. If you fly above this, you'll be your own "test pilot." :) It's really no different from a plane's published maximum cross-wind; the plane may exceed that limit, but factory test pilots only demonstrated the certified number.

But maximum operating altitude is not the same thing as the plane's service ceiling, which as Steve pointed out is defined as the altitude where a single-engine piston aircraft will only climb at 100 fpm (200 fpm for a twin, 500 fpm for a jet). I would expect the turbocharged DA40NG to have a service ceiling of more than 20,000 feet. But I wouldn't suggest flying that high, since it's very cold up there and you'll need to wear a mask instead of a cannula for O2.

For comparison, the DA62 has a maximum operating altitude of 20,000 feet. I know DA62 pilots who've climbed higher than that to top bad weather, and the DA62 (or DA42-VI) is climbing at least 700-800 fpm at that altitude. I've read that during development, Diamond test pilots successfully flew a DA62 above 30,000 feet, so its service ceiling is considerably higher than 20,000 feet.
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Re: What's the DA40 NG's ceiling?

Post by Boatguy »

I was up at 16,000' (indicated) about two weeks ago on May 27. Take a look at the track log and you can see the 40NG climbed readily from 15,000 to 16,000'. See the period around 09:25. My GS slowed from 162 to 135 as I climbed. There is a bit of slingshot effect, bleeding off cruise speed in the climb. My memory is that I was climbing at an average of about 300fpm once past the initial speed bleed, but I don't think I set FLC to 88, I think I was climbing at closer to 100IAS. I was eastbound so ATC brought me back down about 15min later.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N45 ... T/tracklog
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Re: What's the DA40 NG's ceiling?

Post by blsewardjr »

Note that per the DA40-180 POH (Chapter 2, Operating Limitations - page 2-17), "The maximum approved operating altitude for US registered airplanes is 14000 MSL unless an approved supplemental oxygen system is installed." (I found this in the course of deciding on what altitude to go up to in doing an altimeter/encoder check).
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Rich
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Re: What's the DA40 NG's ceiling?

Post by Rich »

blsewardjr wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:36 pm Note that per the DA40-180 POH (Chapter 2, Operating Limitations - page 2-17), "The maximum approved operating altitude for US registered airplanes is 14000 MSL unless an approved supplemental oxygen system is installed." (I found this in the course of deciding on what altitude to go up to in doing an altimeter/encoder check).
The normal procedure is to run the checks up to the limits of the mechanical altimeter certification, which for most of us is 20,000 ft. That's the way mine have always been done. Since portable oxygen systems can fulfill this US regulation on the matter, limiting oneself to 14K seems shortsighted. You won't get a discount on the procedure, I wouldn't think.

I've flown numerous planes well above their "service ceiling". Many older planes only publish this for max gross weight and it really might be quite a bit higher when the plane is lighter than that. My PA28 140, e.g., had a service ceiling of 10,500 ft and I had it as high as 15,000 ft. when very light. But I absolutely believe it when was loaded up. Even the very popular C172 (SP variant - 180 HP) shows a service ceiling of 14,000 ft. This is routinely beaten even by the old 145-150 HP versions from ages gone by.
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Re: What's the DA40 NG's ceiling?

Post by haykinson »

This "maximum approved operating altitude" seems to be an extremely rare thing. There seems to be some Cessna 172S POH that limits those airplanes to 9800ft unless there's oxygen on board. But, since it's in Chapter 2, does that mean it constitutes a requirement?

It's also unclear what an "approved supplemental oxygen system is installed" means. Does it have to be built into the airplane, or is a typical aviation oxygen tank with a cannula sufficient?
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Re: What's the DA40 NG's ceiling?

Post by da50speed »

Thanks everyone. Sounds like the DA40 NG could make it up to cruise at 17,500 MSL then. Has anyone tried it?

What system do some DA40 pilots use for oxygen since Diamond doesn't offer an integrated oxygen system for the DA40?
CFIDave wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:23 pm For comparison, the DA62 has a maximum operating altitude of 20,000 feet. I know DA62 pilots who've climbed higher than that to top bad weather, and the DA62 (or DA42-VI) is climbing at least 700-800 fpm at that altitude. I've read that during development, Diamond test pilots successfully flew a DA62 above 30,000 feet, so its service ceiling is considerably higher than 20,000 feet.
Amazing that the DA62 has been successfully flown above FL30! Truly impressive. Diamond has been coming out with some incredible videos lately, but other than that their marketing is not doing their product justice. For crying out loud, some of their photos on the DA40 product page and brochure appear to represent older models and not the latest one being produced. For example, I don't see cup holders or nice side storage bins in their DA40 photos and yet in some review DA40 review articles I see the updated interiors. Diamond should advertise this fact of the DA62 having flown at FL30 and merely disclaimer it was a professional test, closed course, do not attempt, yadda yadda to cover their butt. But it's an impressive fact worth knowing.
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Re: What's the DA40 NG's ceiling?

Post by Rich »

da50speed wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:42 pm What system do some DA40 pilots use for oxygen since Diamond doesn't offer an integrated oxygen system for the DA40?
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