Service & MX

[AirbusAddict]

Hello everyone.

Long time reader, first time poster. I've researched other threads and information online but I'm looking for more insight into your operational costs and personal experiences on the topic. I have just achieved 3 years of ownership on my 2005 DA40-180, it has been an absolute joy to fly. I operate it about 200 hours a year give or take, primarily personal X/C trips, hangar kept in Florida, and in nice condition both exterior and interior wise. I try to baby the thing as much as I can.

I just brought the aircraft to the shop for annual #3 and I gotta say, I'm pretty sticker shocked at the estimates I have received. I received an estimate north of 15k to complete the annual and to take care of associated airworthiness items to get the aircraft signed off. This does not include an additional 8k estimate to take care of recommended items during this inspection. The last 2 annuals on this aircraft were in excess of 10k as well. The majority of the annual costs are labor related. I understand that big things do come up during annuals and inspections but 50k in inspections in the first 3 years of ownership? Is this in line with what you all are experiencing? It has been the same shop over the years.

I have read folks having annuals as low as $500 on owner assisted, IA supervised inspections. I seem to read, however, the average to be around the 3-5k mark which is where I thought I would be. Do you guys or gals have any tips on getting these prices down? Also do you folks have any opinion on taking the aircraft to your local field A&P versus a Diamond Service Center? Thanks again for your insight.

[blsewardjr]

Romeo- Those costs seem excessive even for the first few annuals after purchase. What are the big ticket items? Your mention of labor costs brings to mind the question of whether you are maintaining the aircraft according to all the actions in Chapter 5 of the Aircraft Maintenance Manual (AMM). For aircraft flown under Part 91 this is not required. Also are you having all of the Mandatory Service Bulletins and other Service Bulletins done? Again, not required for Part 91 aircraft UNLESS the FAA makes them part of an Airworthiness Directive. There are some infrequent, but expensive inspections required by some ADs and by Chapter 4 of the AMM, which is mandatory, which might be driving your costs. Bernie

[Steve]

Hi Romeo:

Welcome to the forum. It is difficult to assess your experience without more details. Although I do Owner-Assisted Annual Inspections, we follow the Diamond maintenance checklist for inspections item by item. I am quite OCD about it. Any items that require measurement (standby battery voltage, brake rotor thickness, rudder cable tension, and many others are recorded on the checklist). It generally takes us about 33-35 man-hours for the inspection, of which I perform about 30. Last Annual took a bit more hours, as we had to do the dye-penetrant inspection of the nosegear, which required masking off the front of the airplane to prevent overspray. Of course, any scheduled or non-scheduled maintenance items add to that total. We replaced the ventral COM antenna and installed Whelen LED wingtip lights, which, as I recall, took me about 8 hours to do, and about 1 for him to inspect.

Steve

[Rich]

It is hard to reconcile the numbers without seeing what they are composed of. When I had annuals done by a shop, they would typically wind up in the $2-$3K range. There would be their flat charge to do an annual for a single-engine, fixed gear. Then any squawk items I had given them. And they'd usually come up with some other items, such as brakes.

The highest "annual" I had ran about $18K, but that included $15K of engine work that was needed due to cam/follower problems, likely due to period of inactivity combined with a wet environment.

There was one other somewhat high annual of about $7K, which included replacing rudder cables and fuel interconnect hoses.

That said, there were inevitably other things that came up unexpectedly, but these were basically failures that were dealt with outside of annual inspection. Other than that engine problem they probably average out to maybe $1.5-$2K/year. (Prop, fuel sender, fuel pumps, starter, GNS530W, Slick Start).

This is all over a period of 18 years, with plane hangared all but 5 of those years. It excludes about $33K of various upgrades. Most elective, a couple required by changes in the overall flying ecosystem (ELT, ADS-B)

[perossichi]

I've had annuals done by two different shops. Both charged a fix fee of $1850. Note that an "annual" is simply an inspection. A discrepancy list is prepared. These lists are what cause the bill to be higher. My annuals typically are inspection, brake linings (they seem to wear out in a year), remove clean, gap, and rotate spark plugs and some minor items. About 3K or so total (including the inspection fee).

buy a copy of "engines" by Mike Busch. You might also consider engaging Savvy Aviation as your maintenance advisor. I'm willing to bet that most of the items on your very expensive list are not required and some may even be detrimental to the plane. For example, fuel injection nozzles should not be cleaned unless there is evidence (via a GAMI chk) of a blockage. Alternators and main batteries do not have to overhauled or replaced until they fail. However, magnetos should be IRANed (inspect and repair as necessary) every 500 hours.

Another great example is the prop. Hartzell says every six years for 1200 hours whichever comes first for an overhaul. If the plane is well-maintained and flown frequently, then most folks advise not to do the overhaul. Same can be said for the engine which is 2000 hours TBO. But this is a very controversial area. As an owner operator you should decide what you want to here.

But of course, I do not have access to your list of discrepancies. There can be some gray areas. For example, at my first annual the recommendation was to replace all of the hoses as they were over 12 years old. Today, I probably would have taken a very close look at the hoses before agreeing to this. At that time, I was not well-informed.

I would not agree to any cylinder work unless the cylinders were examined with a borescope.

[AirbusAddict]

Thank you everyone for the prompt replies!

Here is a some more background information: The annual inspection alone is about 2.5k, the remaining 13k is to take care of airworthiness discrepancies to get the aircraft signed off. 90% of the costs is the shop rate for labor, which is estimated at over 100 man hours.

Some of the big ticket items are airframe related which includes removing the wing to inspect aileron rollers, the Major Structural Inspection, and 18 man hours to trouble shoot an ELT. The rest are a number of small items, a few hours here and a hours there in labor and it quickly adds up. While I trust the shop, I want to ensure that they are using the labor time as efficiently as possible.

The aircraft is part 91 operated so only items required airworthiness and safety of operation are a part of the items that are in the required estimate.

Do you guys work with your local A&P on field? Or do you send the aircraft to a Diamond Service Center for all the work? My goal is to drive these costs down as much as possible and not pay +10k an annual while still ensuring all the required work is done properly. Safety is the number 1 priority. Any tips you all would like to share are greatly appreciated.

Thank you all again for the responses.

[Steve]

My A&P/IA has his shop on the field. I have been working with him for 19 years. Initially, he had no experience with Diamonds (he specializes in Mooneys and Mooney owners seem to come from quite a distance to use him). One year, he was considering closing his shop because of some rental issues with the airpark manager, so I scouted other shops, including a Diamond Service Center in my area. I really didn't like the service center, mainly because of the way airplane parts from jobs underway were scattered all over the hangar. Their cost was also significantly higher. Luckily, my guy resolved the issues. Over the years, we have both gained experience in the DA40. Last summer I had to split my engine and we did it in my hangar, so I definitely trust him:

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6905&p=74800&hilit=ruh+roh#p74800

I don't think that wing removal is required for control rod roller inspection (or repair, for that matter):

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6629&hilit=roller

Maybe the wing removal is for the MSI. If someone wanted to charge 18 hours to troubleshoot my ELT, I would have them just replace it with a new one - less expensive. Anyway, I wouldn't want to spend what you have spent on Annuals/maintenance (that is what I would budget for a DA42).

Good luck,

Steve

[Lance Murray]

18 hours to troubleshoot an ELT should be alarming.

Think of owning these airplanes like owning an older exotic car. You have to learn how to do some of the maintenance yourself and have a good independent mechanic or they will put you in the poor house. You can't give a blank check to maintenance.

I would suggest signing up with https://www.savvyaviation.com to help you manage the maintenance. The cost is minimal compared to the potential savings

[Chris]

Even if you don't do any maintenance yourself, you shouldn't be seeing repeated annuals north of $10k. Sure, some years you might get unlucky, but on average the $3k-$5k mark, including fixing some things that pop up during the inspection, seems reasonable to expect for somebody letting their shop do all of the work. I agree with Lance that 18 hours to do anything with the ELT should set off alarm bells. If the shop doesn't have any experience with Diamonds, you may be footing the bill for them to learn.

[Rich]

I believe I was charged 2-3 hours to change my ACK E-01 for the E-04 406 MHz. Required connector change, R/R the baggage compartment, various paperwork.

That $7K annual in 2007 involved, among other things, R/R both wings, fuel tanks to replace the interconnect hoses. It also involved fabricating and installing new rudder cable (there are actually 6 cables to be replaced).

To be fair, how many of us religiously do all the drain hole inspections listed in section 5? Gotta be over 100 of these things hidden inside the wings, tail and fuselage