Path to ADS-B & WAAS for older DA40s

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TwinStarScott
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Re: Path to ADS-B & WAAS for older DA40s

Post by TwinStarScott »

After further late night research, it now appears higher level GDU software* for the legacy G1000 systems will, in fact, support the flight plan transfer feature! According to another owner posting on this same subject (only from a previous thread), Garmin told him “the GTX-345R will NOT support the flight plan transfer feature."

If both of the above statements are true, we're now down to trying to figure out whether or not the FS210 is the final link for unlocking the flight plan transfer feature.

From page 200 of the Garmin (legacy) G1000 Pilot's Guide for the DA42NG:

"Flight plans can be transferred to the system from a mobile device via the Flight Stream 210 Bluetooth wireless connection."

Note: starting on page 198, Garmin describes how to transfer flight plans using an SD card.

* requires GDU versions 11.12 and higher
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Chris B
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Re: Path to ADS-B & WAAS for older DA40s

Post by Chris B »

Scott's posts triggered more discussion with Garmin support. No insight on flight plan download futures, but clarity on the Bluetooth connectivity trade-offs with the Flight Stream 110 & 210.

Unbelievably, the Flight Stream 110 will *not* transfer GTX345R AHRS data. Obviously the 110 was crippled to up-sell to the 210. But when you install a Flight Stream 110 or 210, the GTX345R Bluetooth is disabled. This means that *no* backup AHRS data is available once the 110 is installed. With the Flight Stream 210 installed, the *only* available AHRS is the less robust one in the 210.

Awesome. Thanks Garmin. :thumbsd:

I plan to see if I can live with the Bluetooth strength issues. A future Flight Stream 110/210 firmware revision may or may not fix these problems. Only Garmin knows, and we don't have a need-to-know. :scream:

Chris
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TomJ
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Re: Path to ADS-B & WAAS for older DA40s

Post by TomJ »

My airplane is virtually identical to Chris B's N171CB (and is at the same airport) so I basically copied his approach at the same avionics shop - i.e. GTX345R with the internal combo XM/GPS antenna. Reading this thread was useful and timely, and I'm doing the following with respect to Flightstream:

Since my airplane had not yet been buttoned up after the GTX34R upgrade, I asked the shop to install a Flightstream 110. Primarily, this is to reliably get ADS-B traffic and weather on the iPad. My thinking regarding the 210 is that the main reason for wanting a backup AHRS would be as a backup to the standby AI. If we have a complete electrical failure presumably the GTX345R (and Flightstream) would be unusable as well. So I didn't put much value on the FS210. If I start to lose faith in the standby AI I'll probably get an inexpensive Stratus or something, tied to Foreflight's AI and synth. vision display.

Thanks for all your posts. I expect to be able to give you a PIREP next weekend.

- Tom
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Colin
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Re: Path to ADS-B & WAAS for older DA40s

Post by Colin »

I'll probably get an inexpensive Stratus or something, tied to Foreflight's AI and synth. vision display.
This is what I have. I consider it a backup for my backup, which I like quite a bit. For me, having the WHOLE solution be independent of the electric system (yet the batteries are charging while the electric is working) makes me feel much more secure about it.
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TwinStarScott
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Re: Path to ADS-B & WAAS for older DA40s

Post by TwinStarScott »

Here's a thought for those who are awaiting the installation of a GTX-345R and yet have decided to postpone adding either a FS110 or 210. They could:

ask their avionics shop to run the necessary wires/cabling, so as to allow for either FlightStream box to be added at a later date and time, with each end of the run neatly coiled up and safely stored for future use. This should be relatively inexpensive, especially compared to the labor cost required after the fact and in the event any number of circumstances should happen to change down the road.

With the 2020 mandate fast approaching, it's rather incredible that legacy G1000 Diamond owners can end up going to all the trouble and expense of installing a GTX-345R - yet in some or most instances only gain ADS-B OUT. And the ability to access any of the ADS-B IN features is very much in doubt at the time of installation. Yet has DAI ever once notified either avionics shops or customers of this likely possibility / outcome?

It's a bit like the famous Charles Dickens quote, “it was the best times, it was the worst of times”.

On the best side of the coin – Colin makes a great point. Stated another way:

Having a robust backup portable arrangement, completely independent of the aircraft's electrical system, could save the day should a panel failure ever occur while in solid IMC.

Even more so, in widespread IMC conditions, that might exceed the 30 minute reserve battery for the panel mounted backup analog attitude indicator, the ability to have a portable source for Synthetic Vision and other features of electronic flight bags is such a gigantic leap in safety. In my case, I decided to go with Garmin products and purchased a GDL-52* since the software of Garmin Pilot dovetailed with the GTN750 I had in my former airplane (does anyone care to start a new thread on Foreflight vs. Garmin Pilot?).

One other point: the possibility of strictly an AHRS failure is perhaps more likely than a complete electrical failure, so I use both the FS210 and the portable GDL – that are connected to either an ipad or Aera 660 (as these use so little panel space). The high profile CFI Gary Reeves
(https://www.pilotsafety.org/) is one of the biggest proponents of training for these failures – as he really stresses the importance for pilots to have a backup plan and training with portable equipment, should anything ever fail in the panel while in IMC. Partial panel is so old school and is now really a means of last, last resort. . . .

Finally to Chris - in two plus years of flying with the FS210, the AHRS data from this device is actually “robust” and has been spot on accurate - unlike the first portable ADS-B receiver I owned, where the AHRS was less than stellar. The only drawback to the FS210 AHRS, is that the airplane ideally needs to be on perfectly level ground before engine start - as it cannot be leveled in flight quickly, as this requires cycling the power for the iPad (or Aera 660). This drawback would also (most likely) apply to the 345R AHRS operation. Can an owner receiving AHRS data from their 345R let us know?

Also, in speaking with an avionics tech yesterday, he thought the AHRS hardware is probably exactly the same in both the 345R and FS210. The only difference is one box is certified and the other is not.

*also consider having an external battery (brick) for your portable ADS-B receiver, for even more run time - in the event of a total electrical failure.
Last edited by TwinStarScott on Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:09 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Path to ADS-B & WAAS for older DA40s

Post by jb642DA »

a backup for my backup.......

The ForeFlight Sentry is good for this too PLUS it has a CO monitor built in!
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Re: Path to ADS-B & WAAS for older DA40s

Post by TwinStarScott »

The “Look into London Factory” tour thread provided by Thomas today is fascinating. At 3:59 is a conversation relevant to this thread, as it discusses different composite materials used in the construction of the DA 40,42 & 62 models. In particular, watch the video at 7:39. With thanks to Thomas, here's the link he kindly posted:

https://rogerstv.com/media?lid=237&rid=9&gid=303062

For those with pending GTX-345R installations, here's a quick summary to consider.

With a GTX-345R and GDU version 9.05, only a full traffic picture will appear on the MFD. ADS-B Wx will not. In the addition to providing a rock-solid bluetooth reception, the advantages of adding a FS210 are:

● ADS-B traffic (on iPads & Garmin portables)
● ADS-B Wx (on iPads & Garmin portables ONLY) but not on the MFD
● AHRS data providing Synthetic Vision that should be reliable in an emergency (on iPads & 660's)
● flight data transfer - requires GDU version 11.12 (& higher). This feature is not supported by the
GTX-345R (roll the dice here, if DAI should ever provide legacy G1000 owners with version 15.xx)
● future EFB features not yet released by either Foreflight or Garmin, especially any that might not be supported by the 345R (such as the one feature mentioned above)

One last plug for the Garmin Aera 660:
● do not suffer from screen glare - even when compared to iPads with anti-glare covers
● do not experience hot weather shutdowns inside our “greenhouse” cockpits like iPads can
● both a plus and minus is: small footprint and screen size compared to iPads
[the Garmin 795 likely is too heavy and bulky for most DA owners]

In addition to an iPad, consider carrying at least one 660.
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Rich
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Re: Path to ADS-B & WAAS for older DA40s

Post by Rich »

I feel like I've got the sweet spot. ADS-B out handled 4 years ago. This aspect is almost without any features in the way of feedback to the pilot. Set txpdr code once or twice in flight, as always. Maybe change flight ID (done directly into the txpdr) and that's it.

ADS-B in totally handled with iPad/Foreflight/Stratus. (Actually, also with my iPhone and often a second iPad in use by my wife.) The competition in the handheld arena means the purveyors of the software are constantly adding and refining features. This includes occasional enhancements to the firmware in the Stratus. Both the Stratus and the iPad receive ship's power, but upon electrical system failure both will likely run longer than remaining fuel would allow.

BTW mounted vertically (one way shown), the iPads never overheat. My wife's is also mounted vertically in a suction-cup-based mount on the right side of the canopy. Having it horizontal on your lap and the sun shines directly on the screen can cause the overheating problem. The Stratus is semi-permanently mounted beneath the instrument panel where the sun can't hit it and yet is easily removable.

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Re: Path to ADS-B & WAAS for older DA40s

Post by reinhardj »

ScottSutton wrote: Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:17 am After further late night research, it now appears higher level GDU software* for the legacy G1000 systems will, in fact, support the flight plan transfer feature! According to another owner posting on this same subject (only from a previous thread), Garmin told him “the GTX-345R will NOT support the flight plan transfer feature."

If both of the above statements are true, we're now down to trying to figure out whether or not the FS210 is the final link for unlocking the flight plan transfer feature.

From page 200 of the Garmin (legacy) G1000 Pilot's Guide for the DA42NG:

"Flight plans can be transferred to the system from a mobile device via the Flight Stream 210 Bluetooth wireless connection."

Note: starting on page 198, Garmin describes how to transfer flight plans using an SD card.

* requires GDU versions 11.12 and higher
Unfortunately announcement of features by Garmin does not mean, that these features are really available. This strongly depends on the compilation requested by the TC holder.
We have a DA40TDI with GPU 12.03 which does NOT include the following features, which, according to Garmin, should be available
- Database sync from MFD to PFD should be available from GDU version 10. Not available in the DA40TDI GDU12.3 compilation
- Flight data logging not available in the DA40TDI GDU12.3 compilation (G1000 shows "Configured off" and cannot be enabled)
- Flight plan transfer not available in the DA40TDI GDU12.3 compilation
Reinhard
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G1000, GDU 12.03, WAAS, GTX 345, SVT, Safetaxi, PilotPak
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TwinStarScott
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Re: Path to ADS-B & WAAS for older DA40s

Post by TwinStarScott »

We have a DA40TDI with GPU 12.03 which does NOT include the following features, which, according to Garmin, should be available
- Database sync from MFD to PFD should be available from GDU version 10. Not available in the DA40TDI GDU12.3 compilation
- Flight data logging not available in the DA40TDI GDU12.3 compilation (G1000 shows "Configured off" and cannot be enabled)
- Flight plan transfer not available in the DA40TDI GDU12.3 compilation
Reinhard, thank you for sharing this troubling information.

Ironically, just a few days ago I was talking to a friend of mine who also owns a DA40, running only GDU version 9.15, and yet he has access to the data logging feature. In fact, he even ships the data off to Mike Busch's Company and with his subscription receives back all these fancy engine graphs for analysis. A guess might be this is because of the different engines, as you have a TDI (CD-155 I presume) and his is a Lycoming IO-360. Yet why wouldn't TDI owners also be able to make use of this feature? Seems so unfair!

As for the other two “missing” features you mentioned, nothing comes to mind other than your premise DAI intentionally left these features out. Perhaps someone like CFI Dave can enlighten us all with an explanation.

Am going to copy and paste your reply on this subject over to the “Outdated “G1000 Petition List” thread because it so directly relates to this effort / discussion. Would appreciate feedback from other legacy DA40 and DA42 owners running GDU version 12.3 (or higher) to see if they too are experiencing these missing features.

Both threads will be monitored for this feedback, as this data really needs to be captured with the petition effort.

Rich, I appreciate you sharing your PIC picture. Is your airplane ADS-B OUT equipped? And if so, what product did you select and how much did you roughly pay? Another DA40 friend of mine with a six pack configuration went with an Avidyne product and is very happy with it and especially their GPS panel mounted unit (IFS440 I believe).

For the legacy G1000 crowd, it seems absurd for these owners to be required to spend in the $10,000 range only to meet the mandate and yet be shut out of so many, if not all, of the ADS-B IN features (from both a GDU / 345R limitation and an uncertain outcome of reliable bluetooth reception).

Back to portable equipment, you make a really important point about securing portable ADS-B receivers when you wrote: “The Stratus is semi-permanently mounted beneath the instrument panel where the sun can't hit it and yet is easily removable.” This is a perfect location for mounting portable ADS-B receivers – out of the sun, yet gets good ADS-B and XM Wx reception, plus provides a full view of the status lights from the left seat, yet doesn't interfere with the right seat passenger / pilot's leg room / ingress or egress. A west coast company (Tap Plastics) is great for making up a custom mounts per the customers specs - and in my case for the GDL-52 unit. On this point, one drawback to the F210 and GDL receivers is that they are both limited to only two external devices. While the Appareo receivers (with WiFi) have a big advantage by allowing up to five devices.

Also, what type of mount are you using – a homemade custom device using a RAM holder? Do you have full stick authority in that position or do you remove it during take-off and landing? It is puzzling to me as why your iPads are completely immune to overheating issues, but good for you. Directing the cool air vents on them must help. Even still, prior to purchasing the X-Naut product, I've had my ipads overheat multiple times and regardless of orientation. And they are mounted in a similar area as the position shown in your picture.

However, there is no question in my mind, the portable Garmin GPS units are nearly bullet proof and not just because they've never once shut down due to overheating.

Count me in on the camp of - a backup for the backup for the backup. As an external battery for an ADS-B receiver (for instance) could come in handy if one ever found themselves in a prolonged search and rescue situation and finding the need to charge a Garmin Explorer, Spot receiver, cell phone or the like.
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