“Expedite climb”

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BkFlyer
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Re: “Expedite climb”

Post by BkFlyer »

Rich wrote:Makes sense. At least it's not for every departure. It looks like the GPS-A is no fun, either, especially coming in from the North. Or is that an approach they never (or rarely) let you use? I've encountered those situations.
Having now filed IFR out of Linden several times in both VFR and IFR conditions, it is pretty much every time. Although a climb to 6000 does add 10 minutes, as Matt mentioned, it’s not a big deal to me because I would be climbing there at some point in the flight anyway.

Rich, the GPS-A LDJ is an approach I have never flown. The controllers don’t want you to do it and it’s “NA at night”. They’ll vector you to within 5-15 NM KLDJ and then usually strongly hint to cancel IFR. Yeah you can fly the approach in a pinch, but why bother when there are so many more fun practices around NY?

I haven’t yet tried taking the Hudson SFRA to get north past LaGuardia for clearence (assuming VFR is posssible). The north NYC approach controller is still quite busy and might not be able to handle a clearence either. When I do the math, it’s wash between flying higher-but-faster, or low-and-slow (with VFR river traffic).
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Re: “Expedite climb”

Post by BkFlyer »

waynemcc999 wrote:My suggestion... "unable". In my opinion (per Busch, et al), CHTs of 430 degF for the ~15 minute climb is way too hot, too long. Maybe I'm being naive, but you were given a valid clearance, and that clearance assumes 500 fpm climb rate... so it's ATC's job to fit you into the overall picture.

I'd do a simple experiment... climb SL to say 6000' MSL, with Flaps up, wide-open throttle, 2450 rpm, Mixture rich enough and pitch attitude just enough to keep CHTs <390 degF... find out that that gives you XYZ fpm (I'd guess generally ~600 fpm). Then when ATC requests "expedited climb", I'd respond with "able only XYZ fpm".
After trying this a few more times, it seems to be the best advice. ATC says best rate and I tell them this is it. There are no specific airspeed in the AIM for IFR climbs until the last 1,000ft or expedited climbs (it says basically not to stall).

Now, in 95 F NYC weather I still don’t get <390CHTs. At 103kt climb it’s 415F on cylinder 1, and then 395-403F on the rest. Feels much better then 430F!
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Re: “Expedite climb”

Post by Paul »

I agree that "a best rate of climb" needs to keep CHTs in the 380 range. Fortunately this will get easier as the weather changes. I'm not sure where in the departure you are getting this request but one other trick is to climb a little slower right on departure so as to keep your airspeed as high as possible. This will keep your CHTs lower and when asked for a best rate of climb, you'll be able to trade airspeed for altitude and have a higher overall climb rate through the block ATC needs you to transit quickly. I'm guessing below a certain altitude, ATC doesn't care about your climb rate because you are too low to conflict with EWR traffic.
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Re: “Expedite climb”

Post by Rich »

BkFlyer wrote:
Rich, the GPS-A LDJ is an approach I have never flown. The controllers don’t want you to do it and it’s “NA at night”. They’ll vector you to within 5-15 NM KLDJ and then usually strongly hint to cancel IFR. Yeah you can fly the approach in a pinch, but why bother when there are so many more fun practices around NY?
There's a similar situation at Vancouver, WA Pearson field. The LDA-A approach you never get, especially when IMC. Instead they clear you for Portland VOR-A and then let you break off to scud-run. Of course, if the weather is bad enough just go on into PDX and call Uber. The airports are that close.
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Re: “Expedite climb”

Post by BkFlyer »

I get the expedite request very early in departure. I think it has always been within 30 seconds of switching to departure (which I do at 400-500 AGL).

It's really a pain to file out of KLDJ. I know it's probably no picnic for the controller either, for sure. Clearance is always "Direct CAT (NDB) at and maintain 2000", then you switch to EWR approach and immediately hear something like "N1234 best rate to 4,000" followed quickly – sometimes within 2 seconds – by "N1234 climb 6,000, best rate to 6,000". Like I said, I'm a fairly new instrument pilot, but since making this post I have come to expect this exact flow on every departure from KLDJ.

(Oh, and if you try to depart runway 27 which flies right through the approach path, clearance says "N1234 expect indefinite ground delay", which I suppose is realistic given the trail of wide bodies lined up to land... switch to runway 9 and receive immediate clearance lol )
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Re: “Expedite climb”

Post by Rich »

BkFlyer wrote: (Oh, and if you try to depart runway 27 which flies right through the approach path, clearance says "N1234 expect indefinite ground delay", which I suppose is realistic given the trail of wide bodies lined up to land... switch to runway 9 and receive immediate clearance lol )
It would seem departing RWY 9 would be the one taking you through approach/departure path. It always seemed they were flying right alongside the turnpike on their way in. Something I'm missing?
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Re: “Expedite climb”

Post by BkFlyer »

mhoran wrote:Given delays getting clearances at Linden (especially during VIP TFRs), I wonder if the best option would be to depart VFR up the river and then pick up the clearance once clear of the bravo.
Ok, OK haha. you've suggested this to me many times over the past few months :D

There are a few reasons why I like to get the clearance on the ground for now, even if it means a 10 minute delay and a climb. The main reason is practice. I do not want to be experiencing a Linden departure for the first time in LIFR.. in fact I want to be proficient at it and know what to expect and when. (2 of the 5 times, I couldn't get off the ground either legally or safely with the ceiling)

The controllers just north of the river are also very busy, I suspect it may be time consuming to get a clearance from them, or they might sometimes decline to do it if you're still in VFR below (I've heard unable once, and several 'standby' delays by light aircraft around Bradley/CT). One more moving piece to worry about in the air. Also the river is bumpier and heavily trafficked so I cannot fly very fast with a Dramamine'd spouse in the right seat ;)

Anyway, now that I'm pretty happy with my knowledge about the home airport departure I will try specifying an in-air pickup fix north of NYC and see how that works out assuming weather permits.
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Re: “Expedite climb”

Post by Colin »

Getting your clearance in the air within the New York Approach airspace is not something I would recommend. I've done it four times, but once was a tremendous pain and two of the other times the controllers were definitely NOT happy. I prefer happy controllers when I am inside the clouds. (The last time was the one time the guy was cheerful and I was on the southern edge of NY Approach.)
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Re: “Expedite climb”

Post by TimS »

Colin,

Why not? Leaving KTEB, it is one of the preferred methods. A VFR departure SID (one of the few in the country) which transitions to IFR.
I have also, when departing KPDK in Atlanta requested flight following to an intersection where I filed the intersection as a starting point for my IFR flight plan. When I called to activate the flight plan, I told the controller I was going VFR to intersection XXXX and picking up my IFR there. Each time, the controller always said thanks, gave me the expected routing, and a squawk code with the provision to maintain VFR. Was really easy to pick up the IFR enroute.

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Re: “Expedite climb”

Post by pietromarx »

I left an non-towered airport VFR on Long Island a month ago and the controller pretended that my prefiled IFR plan wasn't in the system and sent me to flight services ... who then told me I was #3 and never came back. Both folks were grumpy at receiving a call. Of course the flight plan was in the system, but how does one argue with someone on a crowded frequency?

I managed to get to where I was going VFR (across the sound, etc.) and picked up flight following in the next sector. They never called traffic and basically forgot about us until we canceled.

The next leg I picked up my clearance (which was filed in the same way as before) in the air from Boston after leaving an non-towered airport again VFR. They and the western NY sectors were great. All of the sectors going from there to Pittsburgh could not have been more helpful.

The lesson: if you're anywhere east of NYC, forget about it. If you're north and west of NYC then they're fine. I've had this experience multiple times in the same places. Anecdotally, Youtube seems to confirm that pilots and controllers in the east-of-NYC sectors sometimes have a rocky relationship.
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