“Expedite climb”

Any DA40 related topics

Moderators: Rick, Lance Murray

User avatar
Boatguy
5 Diamonds Member
5 Diamonds Member
Posts: 1827
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:48 am
First Name: Russ
Aircraft Type: DA62
Aircraft Registration: N962M
Airports: KSTS
Has thanked: 1328 times
Been thanked: 1163 times

Re: “Expedite climb”

Post by Boatguy »

The KLDJ approach and the KEWR ILS 04 both have an approach heading of 039 so you're correct and I should have said "making a turn while parallel to", not "across". The separation is about 1-1.5nm between those tracks which leaves little margin for error to avoid a mid-air since not every pilot, whether GA or ATP, flies the approach exactly as the plate specifies. I think that is the concern that causes ATC to not allow that approach.

Lows in the northern hemisphere, which frequently lead to IMC, typically bring winds from the SE which would blow sinking wake turbulence from heavy jets on the ILS 04 who are roughly 1,000' higher, across the path of the GA plane flying the KLDJ approach before they reach the MAP. This is very similar to the situation which led to the crash of the Bonanza at KRNO. That should be a concern for a GA pilot flying the KLDJ approach. Altitude separation helps avoid the mid-air scenario, but the skill and precision of the GA pilot are irrelevant when wake turbulence from a 777 meets a Cessna 414, or a DA40.
User avatar
Rich
5 Diamonds Member
5 Diamonds Member
Posts: 4592
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:40 pm
First Name: Rich
Aircraft Type: DA40
Aircraft Registration: N40XE
Airports: S39 Prineville OR
Has thanked: 145 times
Been thanked: 1180 times

Re: “Expedite climb”

Post by Rich »

Boatguy wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 6:48 am The KLDJ approach and the KEWR ILS 04 both have an approach heading of 039 so you're correct and I should have said "making a turn while parallel to", not "across". The separation is about 1-1.5nm between those tracks which leaves little margin for error to avoid a mid-air since not every pilot, whether GA or ATP, flies the approach exactly as the plate specifies. I think that is the concern that causes ATC to not allow that approach.

Lows in the northern hemisphere, which frequently lead to IMC, typically bring winds from the SE which would blow sinking wake turbulence from heavy jets on the ILS 04 who are roughly 1,000' higher, across the path of the GA plane flying the KLDJ approach before they reach the MAP. This is very similar to the situation which led to the crash of the Bonanza at KRNO. That should be a concern for a GA pilot flying the KLDJ approach. Altitude separation helps avoid the mid-air scenario, but the skill and precision of the GA pilot are irrelevant when wake turbulence from a 777 meets a Cessna 414, or a DA40.
The GPS-A 039 deg track and MAP are 3-3.5 nm West of the the EWR 04L track, not 1.5.
The East end of LDJ runway is about 1 nm West of the 04L track. If Wake Turbulence were a factor you wouldn't dare use LDJ at all - VFR or IFR. In fact, there'd be LDJ traffic dropping out of the sky from this effect on a regular basis.
As I state, I can buy that there may be separation criteria and if the pilot decides to go missed after the turn toward LDJ from BAUTZ in IMC that does get more scary
2002 DA40-180: MT, PowerFlow, 530W/430W, KAP140, ext. baggage, 1090 ES out, 2646 MTOW, 40gal., Surefly, Flightstream 210, Orion 600 LED, XeVision, Aspen E5
User avatar
mhoran
4 Diamonds Member
4 Diamonds Member
Posts: 476
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 11:56 pm
First Name: Matt
Aircraft Type: DA40
Aircraft Registration: N269RB
Airports: KLDJ
Has thanked: 121 times
Been thanked: 244 times

Re: “Expedite climb”

Post by mhoran »

I'm based at KLDJ and have flown this approach many times without issue. I've had to go missed once. So long as you're prepared, it's no big deal.

Re: being denied the approach, NY approach will ask if you are "familiar with cancellation procedures" when requesting the approach. This is their way of gauging pilot familiarity with the area. I've always answered "yes", and then been cleared for the approach.

What they don't want you to do -- and is evidenced by the above story -- is keep your IFR to the ground. They expect you to cancel at or before the MAP or go missed.

I find the blog post listed in a previous post absurd. Dropping below 700ft to stay in IMC while cancelling is beyond reckless. Just go missed and land at MMU.
User avatar
Rich
5 Diamonds Member
5 Diamonds Member
Posts: 4592
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:40 pm
First Name: Rich
Aircraft Type: DA40
Aircraft Registration: N40XE
Airports: S39 Prineville OR
Has thanked: 145 times
Been thanked: 1180 times

Re: “Expedite climb”

Post by Rich »

If you're coming in from elsewhere and are not already familiar with nor ever been briefed on the weirdness of this approach, it's definitely risky. You'd better have visual contact with the runway a couple of nm before BAUTZ. It looks like this is is indeed Class G airspace, so technically 1 mile visibility is valid VFR. But that 2-1/2 mile visibility limit is no-kidding. None of that "pilot determines inflight visibility" loophole. Especially with all the ground clutter around the area.

The IAP plate should have a big fat note on it regarding the specifics.
2002 DA40-180: MT, PowerFlow, 530W/430W, KAP140, ext. baggage, 1090 ES out, 2646 MTOW, 40gal., Surefly, Flightstream 210, Orion 600 LED, XeVision, Aspen E5
User avatar
Boatguy
5 Diamonds Member
5 Diamonds Member
Posts: 1827
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:48 am
First Name: Russ
Aircraft Type: DA62
Aircraft Registration: N962M
Airports: KSTS
Has thanked: 1328 times
Been thanked: 1163 times

Re: “Expedite climb”

Post by Boatguy »

We must be looking at different things. Sorry for injecting confusion.
User avatar
Rich
5 Diamonds Member
5 Diamonds Member
Posts: 4592
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:40 pm
First Name: Rich
Aircraft Type: DA40
Aircraft Registration: N40XE
Airports: S39 Prineville OR
Has thanked: 145 times
Been thanked: 1180 times

Re: “Expedite climb”

Post by Rich »

A useful exercise was to use FF, set it to street view and overlay each approach to the street map. Do this on 2 different devices and you can simultaneously see where each track lies. FF allows you to easily measure distance between 2 points. In this case, between BAUTZ and the East boundary of the Turnpike, where the center line of 04L approach track lies. One can also see roughly where the 414 crash site on Berkly St. is relative to the center line and way points of the GPS-A approach.

I stress center line here because ATC has to consider the widths of the approaches, even assuming nobody is past full deflection, but could be close to it.
2002 DA40-180: MT, PowerFlow, 530W/430W, KAP140, ext. baggage, 1090 ES out, 2646 MTOW, 40gal., Surefly, Flightstream 210, Orion 600 LED, XeVision, Aspen E5
Post Reply