Landing Flaps on Base or Final?

[TimS]

One more point. Know WHY you have selected a specific pattern and approach.
Make the pro/con decision, then practice both the regular approach and abnormal situations.

Tim

[dgger]

I would argue that flying IFR in a single-engine aircraft, in particularily in IMC, you already did „price in“ your personal risk of an engine failure. From there there is not much to gain from not coming in stablized.

No engine failure needed. Have you tried a full flap go around in a Cessna 172 when 200ft AGL and no runway? Even a more modern Cirrus SR20 with full flaps?
My point on the jet with a single engine is the plane has so much excess power it can handle the additional drag and meet climb gradients. Most piston planes even with all engines working and full flaps cannot.

I have a feeling we are not on the same page here. When you are flying IFR you are likely coming down an instrument approach (which typically follows a number miles of a straight-in final approach path at something like a 3% descend). You do not have the option to glide a single to the field in case of an engine failure, simply because - barring extremely unusual circumstances - your approach will be to shallow for you to make it.

And yes, clearly you will need to retract full flaps when going around.

[TimS]

I have a feeling we are not on the same page here. When you are flying IFR you are likely coming down an instrument approach (which typically follows a number miles of a straight-in final approach path at something like a 3% descend). You do not have the option to glide a single to the field in case of an engine failure, simply because - barring extremely unusual circumstances - your approach will be to shallow for you to make it.

And yes, clearly you will need to retract full flaps when going around.

Start with know why you do something.
In a jet, regardless of engines on a final approach you land at Vref. Usually spoilers deploy, lift is lost, maybe thrust reverse kicks in... Or in a jet on final approach, you have an obstructed runway or need to go around. Throttle forward and climb. You do NOT touch flaps, or anything, usually until 500ft AGL or 1000ft AGL. As a result, due to regulations, and the physical reality of the "slower" reaction time of a turbofan (one to five second delay depending on engine), inertia; jets generally do not have the option to "float" down a runway until the wheels touch. They also have the brute force power to overcome the high lift, high drag flaps and slats. Hence why in jets depending on op spec you will be configured at Vref with a slight tolerance over (never under), with a Vref that varies by weight and wind, all the way to the runway.

Now in piston plane; power is instant but limited, you also do not have lift spoiling devices. The result is you fly Vso * 1.3 on the approach plus a gust factor (or slightly above blue line); but you cross the numbers slower than this, normally around Vso * 1.1 plus gust factor; with the goal to bleed off the last 10% of speed in the flare. By its very nature, piston planes require configuration changes to slow down from approach till you cross the numbers; further, by the very nature of piston planes not having enough power to muscle through a climb with full flaps; you have the advice to go full flaps on short final. This does a few things. First; on an IR approach, if you need to go around you only have to push the throttle forward and climb. Reduces task saturation at a critical point. Second, on completed approach, this works almost perfectly to slow from approach speed to crossing the numbers speed to flare on the runway. Third, this also becomes second nature for flying in the VFR pattern; you are for most GA piston planes following the same pattern even if a box or semi-circle (separate argument). At 1000ft AGL abeam the numbers configured for approach with full flaps on short final.

Tim

[krellis]

Or in a jet on final approach, you have an obstructed runway or need to go around. Throttle forward and climb. You do NOT touch flaps, or anything, usually until 500ft AGL or 1000ft AGL.

Interesting comment. On the 737 I fly (for over 20 years now) go-arounds always call for a flap retraction. For a two-engine approach with flaps 30 or 40, we retract the flaps to 15, on a single engine approach with the flaps at 15, we retract the flaps to 1. The flap retraction is called for immediately - "go around, flaps 15 (or 1), positive rate - gear up". Not sure what jet you fly, but it is this way on all of the Boeing aircraft I have flown.

[Rich]

Statement of fact: I have twice done a full-flap go-around in my DA40 - from the flare. Granted, not at MTOW, and they both happened at low-elevation fields, but no particular problem. Flaps were retracted once I had a few hundred feet elevation.

[jb642DA]

Or in a jet on final approach, you have an obstructed runway or need to go around. Throttle forward and climb. You do NOT touch flaps, or anything, usually until 500ft AGL or 1000ft AGL.

Interesting comment. On the 737 I fly (for over 20 years now) go-arounds always call for a flap retraction. For a two-engine approach with flaps 30 or 40, we retract the flaps to 15, on a single engine approach with the flaps at 15, we retract the flaps to 1. The flap retraction is called for immediately - "go around, flaps 15 (or 1), positive rate - gear up". Not sure what jet you fly, but it is this way on all of the Boeing aircraft I have flown.

I agree with krellis - first steps in a B737/757/767/A330 (civilian jets I've flown) -

The procedure is "Go Around" - "Flaps ___" (whatever plane it is, you retract from landing flaps to something less than landing flaps (Airbus from full flaps to flaps 3 or 2, see krellis for Boeings, they are all the "same"). This takes place IMMEDIATELY!
Next call is "Positive Rate" (of climb), "Gear - UP". A bunch of stuff is happening immediately after the start of the go-around or "missed approach" - there is no waiting for 500' or 1000' AGL to do this.

As far as flying any Diamond goes, I would recommend EVERY pilot (from student through ATP) know immediately what you will do for a "go around" or a "missed approach". Whether you're flying GA or an airliner, always be aware of your "configuration" and change it appropriately for the circumstances.....for what its worth, I'd rather be flying a DA40/42/62 versus the A330!!

[Lcrider]

For what it’s worth, in my last IFR training flight, I was under the hood and went to landing flaps a little after the FAF and my instructor had me go visual at that point. He pointed out that I was stabilized with T/O flaps, but then changed the aerodynamics of the wing when I changed the flaps. His rule for me is stay in T/O flap configuration until I have the runway visually. Minimizing configuration changes while in IMC is what he stressed. Makes a lot of sense to me, with the benefit of one less thing to do if you go missed like a lot of others have pointed out.

[TimS]

Krellis, et al,

I do not fly big jets. I am stuck at a desk. That is what I was taught by two check airman who did my training and have read multiple times. So, I will gladly defer...
But my basic point still applies, know why....

Tim

[Steven]

Do you "generally" recommend landing flaps on base or short final?

In a DA40 or DA20, the only two aircraft I have a lot of time in, landing flaps on final. Or not at all if it's a long runway.