ADS-B Options for WAAS G1000 with TAS 600

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Chris B
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Re: ADS-B Options for WAAS G1000 with TAS 600

Post by Chris B »

Rick wrote:Hopefully, I won't have to pay for the GTX345 and just get the GTX335 since I already have TAS600 and XM weather.

ADS-B is just another expense for me without much benefit.
Hi Rick -

One consideration is that the position accuracy (radial, distance & vector) will be much better than the TAS600. ADS-B traffic also identifies the target aircraft type.

Whether these enhancements are worth the incremental cost for the GTX345 is obviously a judgment call.

Chris
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Re: ADS-B Options for WAAS G1000 with TAS 600

Post by Barry »

So here's my question that no one seems to be able to answer for me yet. If you leave the TAS 600 in place, is the entire system smart enough to know which is the real target? I think that we all know that the TAS 600 has some limitations due to the very narrow triangulation window of the antenna placement on the DA40. I can watch airplane move behind me from one side to the other in a couple of seconds which unless thet are traveling at a substantial fraction of lightspeed is impossible. I also see phantom reflections in certain areas from time to time. So which target will take precedence?

Thanks,

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Re: ADS-B Options for WAAS G1000 with TAS 600

Post by CFIDave »

If you have the upgraded TAS600 "A" series with ADS-B In (but no GTX345 transponder with ADS-B In), the Avidyne is supposed to include VeriTAS software based on joint research between Avidyne and MIT that correlates ADS-B targets with transponder active traffic targets, providing more accuracy and reducing false alarms. (You can read about this on the Avidyne website.)

If you have the TAS600 series without the ADS-B upgrade (just transponder active traffic, but no "A" upgrade) and install the GTX345 transponder with ADS-B In, the G1000 is supposed to correlate the two different traffic inputs before display. This is in Garmin's GTX345 product description: "When integrating an active traffic system with the GTX 345, ADS-B traffic and active traffic targets are merged on the display to give pilots a truly comprehensive traffic picture."

Unfortunately we don't yet have any experience with either configuration to know how well the ADS-B In traffic vs. transponder active traffic correlation will work. I can see how software can easily do this for Mode S transponders. Mode S aircraft when queried will transmit their Mode S address (i.e., tail number) that can be matched with that same plane's ADS-B broadcasts that will also include the plane's tail number. But the much more popular older Mode C transponders don't broadcast tail numbers. The software will then have to guess based on distance and relative bearing if two targets are actually the same aircraft before display.
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Re: ADS-B Options for WAAS G1000 with TAS 600

Post by rwtucker »

According to Avidyne's website:
VeriTAS is Avidyne’s ADS-B/TAS traffic detection & alerting technology that shows the true traffic picture by accurately and automatically correlating Active (TAS) & Passive (ADS-B) targets. Future upgrades will be available with predictive collision avoidance using advanced algorithms designed under the FAA/MIT ATAS program.
Apparently, the "correlation" occurs before we see the target and we might guess that it will eliminate the reflected phantom and the supersonic aircraft that our TAS600 units show chasing us, dogfight style, but never catching up in spite of their speed.

I looked around a little and could not see a current price for an upgrade to our TAS600 units. The 2010 $2,000 upgrade price is still on their website. Avidyne seems to be recommending the TAS620 for our upgrade but that seems like overkill for those of us who drive DA40s.

Still, I like my Avidyne. In many of the areas I fly, it is more likely to report traffic and I have learned to deal with the positional and phantom issues.
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Re: ADS-B Options for WAAS G1000 with TAS 600

Post by BurdetteB »

If diamond would certify the g-1000 version 14 software we all would be able to upgrade the gtx33 to extended squiter to satisfy the out and the tas615a would satisfy the in. Cost of the es upgrade is $800 from Garmin, the tas upgrade to A is $2000. I have been told that the GTX 345 will not work right without the g-1000 version 14 software upgrade.
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Re: ADS-B Options for WAAS G1000 with TAS 600

Post by CFIDave »

As noted on other threads, the GTX345R *will* work with G1000 GDU 12 software (the last version released for the DA40), but only the GTX345R version with built-in WAAS (for $800 more) and with its own GPS antenna connection.

Just for fun I stopped by the Avidyne booth at Oshkosh again this year for my regular annual question about when the "A" version upgrades to the TAS600-series with ADS-B IN traffic would be available. :D The guy I talked to actually laughed (because it's been promised for so many years). He said the A version hardware is now complete, but that it would probably be "end of 2016" before the ADS-B IN software would be finished.

I told him Avidyne probably missed the "window" for market demand, since the Garmin 345R transponder with dual-mode (1090ES and UAT) traffic and weather ADS-B IN would be preferable to upgrading the TAS600 with only single-mode 1090ES traffic ADS-B IN (it will have to rely on ground stations to indirectly relay UAT traffic info, and no weather).

I fully expect to visit the Avidyne booth again next year to ask the same question. :P
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Re: ADS-B Options for WAAS G1000 with TAS 600

Post by rwtucker »

Maybe I'm not following closely enough Dave, but it seems like some of us would almost need a whiteboard to keep track of the issues. Your posts always clears it up for me . . . until we get another surprise.

Since a few of us are in my situation, what do you think is the best course of action for the following:

- Have G1000 WAAS
- Have TAS 600
- Looking for the most efficient ADS-B solution that compliments TAS in a user friendly way
- Want ADS-B Wx
- Prefer the least complex solution
- No pressure to get this done right now; willing to wait if that meets the other considerations better


I can comment a little on the issue of self-identity and the communication of transponder identify and codes to the ADS-B system. Each manufacturer holds different patents on their methodology. it is my understanding that Garmin was first in line and holds what many feel is the best technical solution. I think this issue is only relevant when employing some multiple-vendor solutions.
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Re: ADS-B Options for WAAS G1000 with TAS 600

Post by CFIDave »

Right now, I think (as I noted above) that attractiveness of the (eventual???) Avidyne ADS-B upgrade has waned, now that the GTX345R transponder can provide direct reception of both UAT and 1090ES independent of ground stations, and includes a Bluetooth link to display ADS-B In info to your iPad.

So then it's an issue of money (as it usually is) and timing. If you're concerned about "beating the 2020 rush" for ADS-B installation and want it now (or lack WAAS in your plane), go ahead and pay more for the $5800 GTX345R with integral WAAS GPS position source, as well as for a 3rd GPS antennal connection.

Alternatively, if you're willing to wait at least a year for the Diamond/Garmin TC/STC situation to be resolved sufficiently for newer G1000 software to become available, then you can probably save about $1000 by purchasing the $5000 GTX345R that makes use of your existing GIA63W WAAS position source, and that also doesn't require new antennas or cabling.

With either GTX345R installation, you can still keep your existing Avidyne TAS600 unit, and the G1000 should be able to correlate TAS600 transponder targets with GTX345R ADS-B IN targets. The TAS600 will still be helpful if you're flying outside of the US (e.g., Canada or the Bahamas) where there is no ADS-B ground station coverage and there will be transponder-equipped targets flying around without ADS-B Out.
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Re: ADS-B Options for WAAS G1000 with TAS 600

Post by Chris B »

What Dave said. :thumbsup:

Although I think the potential savings for WAAS aircraft is probably about $2000. The non-WAAS GTX345R is $800 cheaper, you don't need a new $500 antenna, and the installation should be much simpler. The local avionics shop indicates that racking the GTX345R is trivial, and the only additional labor is SW configuration.

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Re: ADS-B Options for WAAS G1000 with TAS 600

Post by rwtucker »

Dave,

Is it correct to think that if you switched out to the non-WAAS GTX345R now in a WAAS DA40: (a) that you would see no benefit due to the lack of software hooks and display coding, etc. and (b) that you would beat the installation rush (and possible price increases) while being ready to go as soon as the new G1000 software was released?
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