Has anyone already placed an order for a Panthera?

Any DA40 related topics

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Tommy
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Re: Has anyone already placed an order for a Panthera?

Post by Tommy »

It's a lot different airplane than originally envisioned. It's quickly taking on the characteristics of a lot of other certified aircraft. It's becoming very homogeneous. Not nearly as exciting as it once was. Reality is setting in.
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Re: Has anyone already placed an order for a Panthera?

Post by Antoine »

It seems the promise of the IO-390- powered Panthera doing 1000 NM at 200 knots on 10 GPH has been buried (except on the home page of the Panthera site)
The specs are here:
http://www.panthera-aircraft.com/technical-data

With an IO-540V (260 HP) claimed fast cruise is 198 KTAS
With an IO-390 (210 HP) it is now 181 KTAS.

I reckon the IO-540V will burn about: 260 HP * 75% * .45 lbs/HP/hour / 6 = 15 GPH

Call me a dreamer, but what if they put an SMA diesel in this plane? It is the same weight as the IO-540 and it will offer more power at altitude while burning much less fuel...

And if worldwide service is an issue, how about a CD-155? probably good for 180 KTAS on 7 GPH with the added bonus of lightweight...
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Joey
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Re: Has anyone already placed an order for a Panthera?

Post by Joey »

The article in AOPA said continental was going to discontinue the io-390. Nice payload but a much higher stall speed and poor climb numbers. Makes me wonder what retractable gear and clipping off 3' of wing would do for the da40.
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Antoine
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Re: Has anyone already placed an order for a Panthera?

Post by Antoine »

The Panthera also exposed how much excess weight the DA40 has.
At least 100, maybe even 150 Kg...
Taking this off the DA40's empty weight would instantly double sales, killing the SR20 and the Tecnam 2010.
Add de-icing, clean up aerodynamics and...
But nobody cares. The DA40-180 is the best plane Diamond never made (typo intended).
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Erik
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Re: Has anyone already placed an order for a Panthera?

Post by Erik »

Antoine, Doesn't the DA40 have a good bit of fiberglass? If so conversion to carbon fiber would save a lot of weight.

The DA40 is a much nicer flying airplane than the SR20 from a pilot's perspective. In my opinion the major selling point of the cirrus is the parachute. Any aircraft company that wants to compete financially with cirrus needs a chute. A lighter DA40 - one that had enough weight saved to add a chute AND carry even more useful load than now, would be a game changer for sales. Not that it doesn't sell now, but it would sell more.
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Re: Has anyone already placed an order for a Panthera?

Post by Kai »

Diamond13 wrote:The liquid cooling, turbo charging, coupled with a cast iron block (majority) all add to the weight that a normally aspirated gasoline powered engine does not need.
You can save on weight as you need less fuel to cover the same range.
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mdieter
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Re: Has anyone already placed an order for a Panthera?

Post by mdieter »

I always understood that carbon fiber is strong, but brittle. I thought the fiberglass was there to add "flex strength" to the carbon. Composite noun a thing made up of several parts or elements.
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Antoine
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Re: Has anyone already placed an order for a Panthera?

Post by Antoine »

This is quite true Mark, so one would use fiberglass for landing gear struts.
This said, the only reason for using fiberglass instead of carbon fiber in a fuselage is the lower cost.
But weight ( as in "excess weight") is not just due to the nature of the fiber.
The resin used, the process (optimizing resin loading) and even the coating play a role.
A good sandwich construction will add rigidity at a very low weight penalty. As always, better= more $$$

For an example of how far the carbon game can be played google MCR 4S - the most advanced quest of lightness I am aware of. They went bust as everyone else...
The DA40 fuselage has some strategically placed carbon fiber patches, but it is mostly fiberglass. The DA42 however is all carbon.
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Re: Has anyone already placed an order for a Panthera?

Post by CFIDave »

Antoine wrote:The DA42 however is all carbon.
Not quite true; it's mostly carbon fiber. I believe the horizontal stabilizer is all fiberglass, the wing skins and spars are laminated with both carbon fiber and glass fiber, and the internal fuselage frames/bulkheads are fiberglass.
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Colin
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Re: Has anyone already placed an order for a Panthera?

Post by Colin »

Talk to the people at Scaled Composites about how difficult it is to produce aircraft parts with carbon fiber. It is too much of an art form for mass production to get all of the benefits. The Pantera folks might have made two planes super light and perfectly done, but let's see them roll out a few hundred with factory workers.

There are more problems than just the straight engineering. I am pretty sure that if they did a DA40 clean sheet tomorrow it would be a little different plane than what I've flown for ten years. But then they would have three years of certification work to do.
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