I was reading this yesterday. We all need to know when to quit.tjmoody wrote: ↑Fri Feb 05, 2021 2:26 am The NTSB Preliminary is out. The pilot did not have a type rating.
NTSB_Newsroom
@NTSB_Newsroom
NTSB issued Thursday the preliminary report for its ongoing investigation of the Jan. 9, 2021, fatal crash of a Cessna 560 near Warm Springs, Oregon; https://go.usa.gov/xASCt
Citation crash 1/9/21
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- Rich
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Re: Citation crash 1/9/21
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Re: Citation crash 1/9/21
That's for sure. I really wonder what the controllers must think when they encounter something like this. Frankly, it must be very disturbing.
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Re: Citation crash 1/9/21
From the report:
Although from the above is obvious that he operated the aircraft outside legal framework, it's questionable how much it contributed to the crash. Holding G-111 and Learjet ratings, I assume he was experienced but at age of 72 any medical condition could cause pilot incapacitation. And of course, there's a possibility of some technical issue like loss of cabin pressure. But I guess it will be very hard to come to definite conclusion.The pilot held a private pilot certificate, and although he held type ratings for the Grumman G-111 Albatross and Learjet, FAA records did not indicate that he held a type rating for the Citation 560. He had taken Citation 560 training toward the end of 2020 at a training facility in Arizona, however the owner of the facility stated that the pilot had not performed to a level sufficient to be issued a type rating or single pilot exemption.
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Re: Citation crash 1/9/21
Disclosure: I'm currently 74 years oldememic99 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 06, 2021 10:45 am From the report:
Although from the above is obvious that he operated the aircraft outside legal framework, it's questionable how much it contributed to the crash. Holding G-111 and Learjet ratings, I assume he was experienced but at age of 72 any medical condition could cause pilot incapacitation. And of course, there's a possibility of some technical issue like loss of cabin pressure. But I guess it will be very hard to come to definite conclusion.The pilot held a private pilot certificate, and although he held type ratings for the Grumman G-111 Albatross and Learjet, FAA records did not indicate that he held a type rating for the Citation 560. He had taken Citation 560 training toward the end of 2020 at a training facility in Arizona, however the owner of the facility stated that the pilot had not performed to a level sufficient to be issued a type rating or single pilot exemption.
We don't know how long ago those type ratings were attained. Moreover it wasn't just that he didn't have the type rating but had apparently been specifically evaluated as not being proficient enough. And he filed with 2 persons aboard. This seems like maybe an attempt to mask the lack of single-pilot waiver, as well.
Whether a medical condition, creeping effects of aging, or a pressurization problem it's clearly incapacitation. Another thing to consider is that cabin pressure would not have been sea level in any case, as the 560 pressurizes to 8,000 ft. There are also some interesting specifics about managing pressurization in the 560 where it might bump up to 14,500 if mismanaged.
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Re: Citation crash 1/9/21
Wow! I wish I'll be able to fly in 20 years (now 54).
You're very right on both of these remarks.
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Re: Citation crash 1/9/21
Most accidents are pilot error.Rich wrote: ↑Sat Feb 06, 2021 4:45 pmWhether a medical condition, creeping effects of aging, or a pressurization problem it's clearly incapacitation. Another thing to consider is that cabin pressure would not have been sea level in any case, as the 560 pressurizes to 8,000 ft. There are also some interesting specifics about managing pressurization in the 560 where it might bump up to 14,500 if mismanaged.
I would think mishandling of the pressurization due to lack of knowledge or working so hard to fly the plane he didn't have the capacity to spot a pressurization issue. Which all boils down to lack of experience or proficiency on the aircraft.
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Re: Citation crash 1/9/21
This would likely point to the indirect cause of the accident. What he exactly did wrong probably doesn't matter much.
"The pilot held a private pilot certificate, and although he held type ratings for the Grumman G-111 Albatross and Learjet, FAA records did not indicate that he held a type rating for the Citation 560. He had taken Citation 560 training toward the end of 2020 at a training facility in Arizona, however the owner of the facility stated that the pilot had not performed to a level sufficient to be issued a type rating or single pilot exemption."
the training facility in Arizona was likely Simcom.
"The pilot held a private pilot certificate, and although he held type ratings for the Grumman G-111 Albatross and Learjet, FAA records did not indicate that he held a type rating for the Citation 560. He had taken Citation 560 training toward the end of 2020 at a training facility in Arizona, however the owner of the facility stated that the pilot had not performed to a level sufficient to be issued a type rating or single pilot exemption."
the training facility in Arizona was likely Simcom.
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Re: Citation crash 1/9/21
I have a three mistake rule before I take off. If I make three mistakes I scrub the flight and park. I've made it to two, but then I get real careful and it tends to be a spotless flight because I'm on high alert.
It is so hard to imagine what it is like to have three controllers correcting your heading, navigation and radio work constantly for that long. After the third correction I'd be asking for a diversion to a VFR airport and landing.
A friend of mine was invited to a fancy birthday party over a long weekend. The host had a Citation X and an older Citation and was flying the guests up. At the last minute his pilot for the smaller Citation bailed and he asked his friend if he'd fly those guests instead. My friend was in that plane. She sat in the front and said the pilot had "a similar plane, but not this exact model." She said he was often hunting for buttons. And something was definitely up with the pressurization, that he couldn't "get it set just right," so they flew from LA to Colorado at 12,000 feet. It was VFR. She told it like a funny story, but it was so scary to me.
Things happen fast in jets. That guy, from the very beginning, was behind the plane. Several steps. That's not going to take long before it catches up to you.
It is so hard to imagine what it is like to have three controllers correcting your heading, navigation and radio work constantly for that long. After the third correction I'd be asking for a diversion to a VFR airport and landing.
A friend of mine was invited to a fancy birthday party over a long weekend. The host had a Citation X and an older Citation and was flying the guests up. At the last minute his pilot for the smaller Citation bailed and he asked his friend if he'd fly those guests instead. My friend was in that plane. She sat in the front and said the pilot had "a similar plane, but not this exact model." She said he was often hunting for buttons. And something was definitely up with the pressurization, that he couldn't "get it set just right," so they flew from LA to Colorado at 12,000 feet. It was VFR. She told it like a funny story, but it was so scary to me.
Things happen fast in jets. That guy, from the very beginning, was behind the plane. Several steps. That's not going to take long before it catches up to you.
Colin Summers, PP Multi-Engine IFR, ~3,000hrs
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Re: Citation crash 1/9/21
It looks like it might have been his first solo in the airplane: https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/sol ... snt-typed/
I have the same personal rule that Colin does, though I add a few things to the list (e.g. arguing with my wife!) which count as "do-not-go" factors.
This said, this guy looks like he was in trouble from the word go. Too bad.
I have the same personal rule that Colin does, though I add a few things to the list (e.g. arguing with my wife!) which count as "do-not-go" factors.
This said, this guy looks like he was in trouble from the word go. Too bad.
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Re: Citation crash 1/9/21
My read of the prelim report and listening to the audio tapes, is that this guy was behind the airplane from the get-go, as noted above. However, he also appears to be confused about very simple and basic things, even while on the ground. Which suggests to me it wasn't hypoxia but started early. My guess is that this pilot not only exercised poor judgment in flying this aircraft without the proper qualifications, but that he may well have been impaired from the beginning, either from (1) being ill, or (2) suffering the effects of prescription, over-the-counter or illegal drugs, alcohol or other substances, (3) or perhaps a more serious psychological condition as potentially evidenced by the unusual spiraling path at the conclusion of the flight. We will likely never know unless the CVR is recovered and he was talking to himself.
In any case, a very sad situation all the way around and an object lesson (as so many of these are) for the rest of us on what NOT to do. For most people, with age comes wisdom, but apparently not for all of us in all circumstances...
In any case, a very sad situation all the way around and an object lesson (as so many of these are) for the rest of us on what NOT to do. For most people, with age comes wisdom, but apparently not for all of us in all circumstances...