DA40 vs. Cirrus SR20

[Colin]

What planet produces the statistic that only 3% of spins are recoverable?

I believe that is from a NASA or SAFE study where they put commercial pilots in a simulator and only 3% were able to recover the aircraft from a spin in the pattern.

[pietromarx]

What planet produces the statistic that only 3% of spins are recoverable?

I believe that is from a NASA or SAFE study where they put commercial pilots in a simulator and only 3% were able to recover the aircraft from a spin in the pattern.

Gotcha. Spins close to the ground ... not a good story. The Cirrus parachute requires 920 feet to open in a spin.

Thanks, Colin, for clarifying the reference. It is appreciated.

[TimS]

Jeez, this group has already made up its mind.

To the OP, both are great planes. Like I said before, figure out your mission, and your emotions and go from there.

Tim

[Rich]

Jeez, this group has already made up its mind.

To the OP, both are great planes. Like I said before, figure out your mission, and your emotions and go from there.

Tim

Not really. As I stated, the SR20 seems to have reached effective parity with the DA40 in recent years, with respect to safety. The SR22 has not, in my opinion, but the SR22 is not what is under consideration here. Given the support problems with the G1000 in the DA40, I would be hard-pressed to recommend it, unqualified, to a prospective buyer. And I'm not a fan of the NG. Now if one could order one more like mine, but say with more modern rendition, such as G5's + GTN instrumentation + GFC500 + GTX345 ...

The sad truth is that many pilots do not properly absorb the nature of stalls and spins into their psyche. I know this to be true from experiences as a flight instructor and from conversations with other pilots over the years. So we either let them kill themselves (and others) to cull the weak or try various methods to save them from their own ignorance.

For sure SR20 pilots/owners must pay attention to the various unequivocal statements in the SR20 G6 POH with regard to stalls and spins. Evidence shows the current crop of SR20 drivers are. Herewith a (very) partial excerpt:

In all cases, if the aircraft enters an unusual attitude following
or in connection with a stall, a spin condition should be
assumed and, immediate deployment of the CAPS is
required. Under no circumstances should spin recovery other
than CAPS deployment be attempted.

[Steve]

It has been mentioned here before, but I love this video of spin testing the NG. The presentation of external view from a chase aircraft plus an inset of the control inputs for both entry and recovery is quite interesting and educational:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQXLUaA ... pp=desktop

I am old enough to have had spin recovery training in my PP curriculum (in a Tomahawk, no less), plus a lot of spins in the T34C during my Navy flight training (which were 'robust' to say the least). As others have noted, most unintentional GA spins occur in the pattern, where limited altitude makes even a immediate, perfect recovery unlikely to save your bacon.

Having said that, it still would be valuable for the newer generation of pilots to take some unusual attitude/spin recovery training in an appropriate aircraft with a good instructor.

Steve

[Rich]

Having said that, it still would be valuable for the newer generation of pilots to take some unusual attitude/spin recovery training in an appropriate aircraft with a good instructor.

Steve

I see a bit of a complacency-inducer in getting a smidgen of training like that. I've spun a few different planes that spin very differently. A C-150 is truly breathtaking and recovers differently after one turn than 4-5. In my experience, a C-172, at the weight/CG which allows intentional spins, refuses to maintain the spin. Instead it will change into a steepening diving spiral (arguably more dangerous). An old champ will spin in a rather friendly manner and recover almost instantly. Basically, different planes spin differently and recover quickly or slowly and some need some kind of special technique to recover. And different power settings at the entrance changes the equation. Left and right spins can be different, as well.

The reality is you're likely going to mostly fly in a particular model you've never spun and is not approved for intentional spins or you're often flying it with weight/cg than you've practiced with. It's not that no one should take such training. But like regular stall training (which has never been taught in a way that assures it truly "sinks in") I can see not all such training one might attain would be equal. It needs to stress the limitations of what you experience.

The main reason spin training was removed from the requirement for PPL is that more accidents were occurring doing intentional spins (culling the herd, I guess) than inadvertent spins (guess it worked).

This is a worthwhile read:
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/199954

[Lou]

One of interesting things about that video is that all of the recoveries seem to be in the 800’-1000’ range.

[pietromarx]

One of interesting things about that video is that all of the recoveries seem to be in the 800’-1000’ range.

That's the key point. Recovering from a spin takes altitude no matter what.

The benign stall and spin characteristics of the Diamonds was one of the more appealing aspects to me. Spins in gliders and a lot of airplanes is simply part of the routine. It was fun to spin gliders, Citabrias, and DA20s. You can even do inverted spins in gliders.

By comparison, though, flying around the family ... the DA40 is so benign and controllable in a stall that I've had CFI's wonder if the plane was actually stalled. The Cirrus is a nice machine, but a bit of a black box with regard to stalls and the solution to spins of just "pull the chute" didn't appeal.

[Rich]

Another reality about recovering from a spin encountered in the pattern: If you're lucky you find yourself maybe 200 ft AGL - pointed in some arbitrary direction, like that transmission line or grain elevator or office building or ...

In fact, even a plain old stall can cost you significant altitude in the recovery. I've been in a Bonanza in a nice benign stable spinless straight-ahead stall, the nose at about minus 10-15 degrees, losing 2500+ FPM (indeterminate -VSI was pegged).

[jast]

If you fully stall a DA40 (and even a DA62) with stick at the rear limit and you stabilize the stall with rudder it will just descend 700-900fpm while slowly waving from left to right. This is about the same speed as the Cirrus parachute. To be fair it still flys forward, so it’s not comparable. But impressive!