The G1000 project - "The next step"

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TwinStarScott
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Re: The G1000 project - "The next step"

Post by TwinStarScott »

Many models (e.g. G1000 Lycoming DA40s originally with non-WAAS GIA63s installed), were upgradable to WAAS GIA63Ws back when Garmin still produced GIA63Ws. Software exists to take advantage of WAAS on these aircraft (e.g., to fly LPV approaches).

Was just speaking to the OEM manager at Garmin earlier today about a subset of this very same subject. Here's what the G1000 petition / spreadsheet indicates:

- there is only a grand total of five DA40's with KAP140's that are also WAAS equipped. It appears these aircraft are most likely running GDU version 12.05.

- zero DA42's with KAP140's are WAAS equipped. Due to the software limitations CFIDave mentions and just as he stated, it's a certification issue (only). However, this also assumes 63W hardware will become available again for legacy aircraft - when and if the NXi, phase I aircraft are allowed to upgrade to the 64W's (Phase II).
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Re: The G1000 project - "The next step"

Post by TwinStarScott »

On Friday, the eight signatories received this response, via email, from CEO Scott McFadzean. His letter contains important, if not essential, information for all Diamond aircraft owners with G1000 panels.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/17Xh8jv ... sp=sharing
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Re: The G1000 project - "The next step"

Post by Boatguy »

Two months after we sent a letter to DAI CEO Scott McFadzean and now we have received a reply. First and foremost I appreciate that DAI listened and responded. Going forward they have offered to meet with representatives of the owners on an ongoing basis. I view the letter from Scott in that context. While Scott’s response will certainly raise more questions, I am optimistic that a dialog has been established upon which better relations can be developed.

Given the large number of combinations of airframes, powerplants and legacy avionics, and the fact that the current offer requires the work to be performed at the factory in Canada or Austria, I view the list in the letter as a starting point for a discussion between each owner and DAI. This may be wishful thinking, but I don’t view the response as a definitive price list to the exclusion of other combinations of Garmin products previously or currently being installed by DAI as may be desired by a particular owner. I think the response from DAI also dispels some of the speculation about the software and certification barriers to upgrades.

The configuration and pricing in the letter is devoid of a lot of detail which will most likely produce “sticker shock” among some owners. Scott’s letter is definitely not a marketing document! For example, $185,000 for a full NXi Phase II system in a DA42 may seem outrageous, but as I read it, that price buys entirely new avionics as would be delivered in a new DA42 including autopilot with yaw damper, servos, 1360 audio panel, etc. I think all that would be retained is the backup instruments.

With regard to some of the specifics of our original request…

1) We asked that all Diamonds should be able to fly LPV RNAV GPS/GNSS procedures, i.e., WAAS/SBAS capability. Diamond responded with WAAS upgrades for all non-WAAS G1000 aircraft at what appears to be the retail cost for the necessary components. However, some configurations assume the availability of discontinued GIA63W hardware so there is a “first come first served” aspect to that offer. If you want this capability, I think it’s probably important to contact DAI immediately.

As has been discussed in other threads, steam gauge DA40’s are not tied to the G1000 and can access a wide array of products to upgrade their avionics and quite possibly at lower cost.

2) We asked for a path to upgrade from KAP140 autopilots to GFC700. Diamond responded with a variety autopilot upgrades. They are expensive, but that is the reality of a GFC700 autopilot with all new servos.

3) We asked for an upgrade path to NXi and future G1000 systems. Diamond responded with upgrades to NXi. Diamond did not respond with a commitment to provide access to NXi sucessors, but we probably have at least five years to work on that issue.

4) We asked for software updates enabling all current and future G1000 and NXi features. Diamond responded that this was not feasible beyond “safety of flight” issues. Since all our aircraft are certified as airworthy there is presumably nothing required in the way of new software features needed to maintain airworthiness so that was pretty much an empty response. I think this request may have been overly broad and not well understood. In any case I do not find DAI’s response satisfactory. The FAA continues to release new FIS-B weather products and Garmin continues to make those available to owners of discrete products like the GTN750, and to the NXi systems in other aircraft (e.g., Perspective+ in Cirrus). My belief is that if those products, or other features are available to other G1000 or G1000NXi equipped aircraft, they should be available to Diamond owners. I don’t think Diamond wants to go on the record as saying that Diamond aircraft avionics features are frozen once they leave the factory, when they could be enhanced with a software release. We need a clearer statement from DAI about their commitment to software upgrades after delivery.

5) Our final request was really a plea for help and was addressed by the above four items. Scott’s letter makes a reference to the “Annex”, but I do not know what this is. I think DAI has an overly optimistic view of what products are STCd for Diamond aircraft as I have regularly found the name Diamond missing in AML lists. Diamond might want to consider spending more effort to encourage third parties to make their products available on Diamond aircraft.

One area in which I think Diamond is doing itself a disservice is with regard to the DA62’s. This is the flagship product and I know a number of promises have been made to DA62 purchasers in the last few years. Maybe these are being addressed 1:1, but I was shocked to see what Diamond was proposing to charge DA62 owners for features that in my opinion should have been available when the aircraft was delivered.

DAI seems to be saying that all of these upgrades must be performed in Canada or Austria. The most time consuming part of the WAAS upgrade is disassembling and reassembling the interior of the airplane to gain access to the LRU rack. Swapping out GIA63s for GIA63W/64Ws is at most a couple of hours. DAI should produce an OSB to enable the upgrade to be performed locally.

I thank DAI for responding to our requests, but what we really need is AOPA to work with the regulatory agencies to unlink the avionics from the certification, something that DAI would probably embrace as well. Avionics are on the same development and replacement cycle as other electronic products. Moore’s law means in 8yrs we have access to 40x the compute power and this is manifesting itself in innovative avionics products from a number of companies, not just Garmin. It is a competitive market and all aircraft owners should have access to the entire market, not, as this reply from Diamond clearly shows, be limited to the manufacturer who provided the avionics when the plane was new. The owner of a 1955 Cessna 180 can choose from a huge variety of vendors and products. I suspect that by the end of 2020 we’ll see formerly steam gauge DA40’s sporting more advanced panels than 2016 DA62s. AOPA should take on this issue because it affects more than just Diamond owners.

And finally, we offered to meet with DAI and they have accepted. It’s now our responsibility to follow through. I suggest that the initial representatives should be the signatories to our letter. If they are interested, I am also willing to volunteer my time to join in a meeting. I suggest that there be annual meetings, face to face, alternating between Canada and Austria. A second set of annual meetings, scheduled roughly between the face to face annual meetings, should be held via an electronic forum such as Webex or a similar online video meeting facility. I also propose that DAI pay the airfare of the participants to attend the annual meetings, while the representatives take responsibility for their own lodging and meal expenses. This would ensure that no owner representative is unable to attend due to the cost of travel. Owners are volunteering their time to make Diamond a better company for all owners. Owner input should be considered invaluable to DAI. In my professional career we spent millions of dollars meeting and listening to customers and the company benefited greatly.

I’m hoping that our letter, and this reply from Scott, are the first steps to moving past the frustration and animosity expressed by many owners and that we are opening a new chapter, building a positive vendor / customer relationship that will benefit all of us.
Last edited by Boatguy on Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The G1000 project - "The next step"

Post by caseyayers »

TwinStarScott wrote: Sat Aug 31, 2019 12:48 am
Many models (e.g. G1000 Lycoming DA40s originally with non-WAAS GIA63s installed), were upgradable to WAAS GIA63Ws back when Garmin still produced GIA63Ws. Software exists to take advantage of WAAS on these aircraft (e.g., to fly LPV approaches).

Was just speaking to the OEM manager at Garmin earlier today about a subset of this very same subject. Here's what the G1000 petition / spreadsheet indicates:

- there is only a grand total of five DA40's with KAP140's that are also WAAS equipped. It appears these aircraft are most likely running GDU version 12.05.

- zero DA42's with KAP140's are WAAS equipped. Due to the software limitations CFIDave mentions and just as he stated, it's a certification issue (only). However, this also assumes 63W hardware will become available again for legacy aircraft - when and if the NXi, phase I aircraft are allowed to upgrade to the 64W's (Phase II).
Not sure if it’s helpful, but my DA40 is KAP140+WAAS and is indeed running v12.05.
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Re: The G1000 project - "The next step"

Post by TwinStarScott »

Yes Casey, this is very helpful information! Thanks for confirming your GDU version and rare hardware combination.
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Re: The G1000 project - "The next step"

Post by caseyayers »

Good to hear! I knew it was a fairly rare combo but had no idea it was *that* rare!
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Re: The G1000 project - "The next step"

Post by startingovercfi »

Couple of questions (probably need to ask diamond).

1) What is the difference between a partial upgrade to waas and a full upgrade, cause you can do partial upgrade and a waas upgrade for 90k for legacy airplanes, but a full upgrade is 185k.

2) does a full upgrade include gfc 700. If not, then the real cost of a nxi upgrade plus a gfc 700 plus the cost of used planes these days starts taking DA40s to near new price and DA42 past the certified pre owned prices.

Essentially these upgrades are still prohibitively expensive, and it seems to make more sense to ditch the G1000 or ditch Diamonds if this is the process moving forward. The upgrade for a king air is 53k plus labor, for a Cessna 172/182/206 29k plus labor. Forcing us to use Diamond’s labor to upgrade is making the price unreasonable it seems.

The economics don’t make sense, and I see a continued disdain for existing owners here.
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Re: The G1000 project - "The next step"

Post by ememic99 »

startingovercfi wrote: Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:46 pm Couple of questions (probably need to ask diamond).
I'll try to answer based on discussion with other Diamond owner. However, I might be wrong on some answers.
1) What is the difference between a partial upgrade to waas and a full upgrade, cause you can do partial upgrade and a waas upgrade for 90k for legacy airplanes, but a full upgrade is 185k.
Full upgrade (185k) includes NXi, GIA64W and ADS besides GFC700, while 105k upgrade includes GIA63W and GFC700. Partial upgrade to NXi (65k) is reserved to already WAAS capable aircraft, so the ones already having GIA63W and getting only Phase I NXi hardware. I guess that for 90k, you get that plus GIA63->GIAG63W upgrade. Upgrade to WAAS and GFC700 is 105k (25k+80k). Of course all these combinations have to be validated for particular aircraft before final confirmation.
2) does a full upgrade include gfc 700. If not, then the real cost of a nxi upgrade plus a gfc 700 plus the cost of used planes these days starts taking DA40s to near new price and DA42 past the certified pre owned prices.
Not sure. Comparing upgrade prices for D42NG to phase I and phase II with full upgrade price (the difference is exactly 80k), I would conclude that full upgrade includes GFC700.
Essentially these upgrades are still prohibitively expensive, and it seems to make more sense to ditch the G1000 or ditch Diamonds if this is the process moving forward. The upgrade for a king air is 53k plus labor, for a Cessna 172/182/206 29k plus labor. Forcing us to use Diamond’s labor to upgrade is making the price unreasonable it seems.

The economics don’t make sense, and I see a continued disdain for existing owners here.
I can't comment on this because unfortunately other labor options haven't been offered. But what I usually find, when checking used aircraft market, is that price difference between KAP and GFC equipped aircrafts (not only Diamonds) is around 70k. We could try to lower these prices by requiring DAI to transparently specify the prices of parts and labor.
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Re: The G1000 project - "The next step"

Post by jast »

Hi!

First all all thank you for all the work you and others put in to get better communication and solutions from DAI!
Boatguy wrote: Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:24 am One area in which I think Diamond is doing itself a disservice is with regard to the DA62’s. This is the flagship product and I know a number of promises have been made to DA62 purchasers in the last few years. Maybe these are being addressed 1:1, but I was shocked to see what Diamond was proposing to charge DA62 owners for features that in my opinion should have been available when the aircraft was delivered.
What is totally unclear is the feature difference and future of certain configurations. There are about 70-80 phase 1 NXI DA62s. It seems to be clear that one big software update is coming to support FS510 and the GTX345R. But this is overdue since many months already. But what happens afterwards? What about all the nice NXI features other manufacturers support (Visual approaches, surface watch, etc). Will they only be supported via phase II?

In general I understand that the situation is difficult also for Diamond to handle the overburdened certification effort. But for sich high-end, high-priced products I would at least expect a 18-24 month bigger software update for all product series >10 aircrafts during lifetime + 2 years after discontinuation. Is this really too much to ask?

Regards,
Jan
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Re: The G1000 project - "The next step"

Post by Lou »

Thank you for continuing to pursue this discussion. Does anyone understand this comment in the letter:

"Of note, Diamond has committed to working with Garmin to provide a further software update to DA40-180 customers in order to support seamless integration of the available ADSB solution from Garmin".

Does this mean a software patch to enable G1000 to access existing WAAS data? I sure hope so. I would be grateful for any comments or insight. Thanks,

Lou
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