Good news for Diamond?

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gordsh
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Re: Good news for Diamond?

Post by gordsh » Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:29 pm

DA40 NG (jetA)....Future??
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Re: Good news for Diamond?

Post by TimS » Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:32 pm

gordsh wrote:DA40 NG (jetA)....Future??
I think Diamond has bet all in on Jet-A. They really only keep avgas around for the US market.
In someways this has hurt the company over the past decade; however based on how the PAFI and other avgas initiatives have been going, it likely is a smart bet.
The only real question is timing, will some other energy storage technology become viable to replace a combustion engine before Jet-A replaces avgas.

Tim
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Re: Good news for Diamond?

Post by CFIDave » Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:24 pm

TimS wrote:I think Diamond has bet all in on Jet-A. They really only keep avgas around for the US market.
To see whether this is true, we should soon see if Diamond Austria comes out with an avgas Lycoming iE2 (FADEC) 375 hp TEO-540 retractable version of its new DA50: a "Cirrus SR22T-killer" designed for the North American market. This is the same engine that Technam is installing on its new P2012 twin going into service with launch customer Cape Air.
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Re: Good news for Diamond?

Post by TimS » Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:16 pm

CFIDave wrote:
TimS wrote:I think Diamond has bet all in on Jet-A. They really only keep avgas around for the US market.
To see whether this is true, we should soon see if Diamond Austria comes out with an avgas Lycoming iE2 (FADEC) 375 hp TEO-540 retractable version of its new DA50: a "Cirrus SR22T-killer" designed for the North American market. This is the same engine that Technam is installing on its new P2012 twin going into service with launch customer Cape Air.
Notice, Cape Air is the US market..... Same question will be for the DA-50, where will the avgas version be marketed and sold?

Tim
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Re: Good news for Diamond?

Post by Antoine » Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:16 pm

Dave can you point me to specs of the 375 HP iE2 please?
I found an announcement from Lycoming, but no real specs, just the fact that it is installed on the 2012 and i not intercooled (!?)
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Re: Good news for Diamond?

Post by CFIDave » Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:11 pm

Antoine wrote:Dave can you point me to specs of the 375 HP iE2 please?
I found an announcement from Lycoming, but no real specs, just the fact that it is installed on the 2012 and i not intercooled (!?)
https://p2012.tecnam.org/general-descri ... owerplant/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTNoBlW7d1c

Not much out there with actual specs. Besides the piston experimental Lancair Evolution (which is now bankrupt and shut down) and the Technam P2012 twin, the Lycoming TEO-540 iE2 engine is also used in the Northrop Grumman Firebird military/surveillance "optionally-piloted vehicle" originally designed by Burt Rutan.
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Re: Good news for Diamond?

Post by Antoine » Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:33 pm

Thanks, it looks like Lyco are just as punchy as DAI when it comes to marketing...
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Re: Good news for Diamond?

Post by Keith M » Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:52 am

CFIDave wrote:we should soon see if Diamond Austria comes out with an avgas Lycoming iE2 (FADEC) 375 hp TEO-540 retractable version of its new DA50: a "Cirrus SR22T-killer" designed for the North American market. This is the same engine that Technam is installing on its new P2012 twin going into service with launch customer Cape Air.
I wonder if Diamond will have to make an aircraft with CAPS to compete with Cirrus. The outcomes of these contrasting forced landings shows what they're up against:

SR22 with CAPS
SuperSTOL without
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Re: Good news for Diamond?

Post by Karl » Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:02 am

Keith M wrote:
CFIDave wrote:we should soon see if Diamond Austria comes out with an avgas Lycoming iE2 (FADEC) 375 hp TEO-540 retractable version of its new DA50: a "Cirrus SR22T-killer" designed for the North American market. This is the same engine that Technam is installing on its new P2012 twin going into service with launch customer Cape Air.
I wonder if Diamond will have to make an aircraft with CAPS to compete with Cirrus. The outcomes of these contrasting forced landings shows what they're up against:

SR22 with CAPS
SuperSTOL without
No need really, a Diamond is safer without CAPS than a Cirrus is with it, especially the Jet A1 versions with the lower risk of fire.

During a quick review of fatal accidents from October 2006 to present I found 13 DA42, 20 DA40, 29 SR20 and 84 SR22. I tried to separate out the Avgas from Jet A1 DA 40 accidents but it was impossible to do reliably.

Someone I spoke to said that a stalled DA40 actually descends slower than a Cirrus with the CAPS deployed. Wouldn't fancy trying it though. :shock:

I have flown in many aircraft whilst wearing a parachute and the briefing was always that the only reasonable time to use it was in event of a fire or major structural failure. Using CAPS in event of a fire wouldn't be much fun and structural failure is few and far between if the aircraft is operated correctly.
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Re: Good news for Diamond?

Post by CFIDave » Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:46 pm

Karl wrote:Someone I spoke to said that a stalled DA40 actually descends slower than a Cirrus with the CAPS deployed. Wouldn't fancy trying it though.
It's actually very easy to prove; something I do all the time in DA40 sales demonstration flights. Just climb to a reasonable altitude, close the throttle, put in full flaps, and try to hold altitude as the plane stalls. You'll hear the stall warning horn, the plane will buffet, and you'll end up with the stick held all the way back.

The plane will simply descend wings-level in "parachute mode" with no stall break, no wing drop, no falling leaf, or instability. You hardly need to touch the rudder pedals. A fully-stalled Lycoming DA40 will stabilize at a descent rate of about 700 fpm (a much heavier DA62 will stabilize at about 1300 fpm descent rate). In contrast, a Cirrus under parachute will descend at about 1700 fpm.

As for the value of the Cirrus parachute, it's not about use during a structural breakup or fire. It's used to address the "wife acceptance factor" to make the sale. A typical Cirrus buyer is an affluent middle-age or older guy who needs to convince his non-pilot spouse that she need not fear him having a heart attack or other medical emergency in flight; all she needs to do in the even of pilot incapacitation is to pull the handle and deploy the 'chute.

In a sales situation, you can argue all you want about how much better Diamond's safety record is compared to Cirrus, or how 2 engines in a Diamond DA42/DA62 is far superior to CAPS, but neither will address a spouse's fear of her pilot husband's incapacitation during a flight, leaving her alone to fly the plane. CAPS gives Cirrus a huge marketing advantage.
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