Cirrus Jet reviewed...
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- Colin
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Re: Cirrus Jet reviewed...
Dan,
I think you have sniffed out the problem and I'll be curious how it is addressed. Composite construction seems to be a real bear to scale up. Lance Air/Columbia ran into some problems with it, as did Icon. Icon's solution was to outsource it to Cirrus, and then move it to Mexico. I read a long story about Voyager One way back and read that even the experts at Scaled Composites couldn't say for sure how much an aileron was going to weigh until the following day when it dried. It's more of an art than a manufacturing process. Tough to scale.
I think you have sniffed out the problem and I'll be curious how it is addressed. Composite construction seems to be a real bear to scale up. Lance Air/Columbia ran into some problems with it, as did Icon. Icon's solution was to outsource it to Cirrus, and then move it to Mexico. I read a long story about Voyager One way back and read that even the experts at Scaled Composites couldn't say for sure how much an aileron was going to weigh until the following day when it dried. It's more of an art than a manufacturing process. Tough to scale.
Colin Summers, PP Multi-Engine IFR, ~3,000hrs
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N972RD DA42 G1000 2.0 s/n 42.AC100 (sold!)
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- Don
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Re: Cirrus Jet reviewed...
Yep. I have/had D-Jet position #3. When I put my deposit down the base price was $895K plus options, plus inflation calculator for every year it took to get certified and delivered. Of course I am still waiting.My understanding of the D-Jet abandonment includes a cost creep deep into the $2 millions. It's not stuff that economies of scale necessarily helped with, either. It was component costs and time required to ramp up to sufficient cumulative volumes to earn back certification costs. Remember - the first couple dozen were sold at very low prices, and they would consume at least the first year of production.
Diamond Star XLS, N623DS, SN40.1076
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Re: Cirrus Jet reviewed...
Light at the end of the carbon fiber tunnel: Google "one shot composite manufacturing".
There is a company in France making a very boring plane called Elixir. Only interesting feature is that the complete wing is molded in a single manufacturing task, hence the name.
The Extra 400 also fell victim of the excessive manufacturing effort. It cost 1.5 Million $ a pop to make.
There is a company in France making a very boring plane called Elixir. Only interesting feature is that the complete wing is molded in a single manufacturing task, hence the name.
The Extra 400 also fell victim of the excessive manufacturing effort. It cost 1.5 Million $ a pop to make.
- rwtucker
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Re: Cirrus Jet reviewed...
IMO the value in this class is a used Eclipse 500 that has had all of the upgrades that initially tarnished its reputation; 41,000 ft. ceiling, 360-375 kt high speed cruise, 48-65 GPH at typical altitudes, performance and cost metrics that are mostly better than turboprops, excellent avionics. With luck, you can pick one up for a little more than half the price of a new Cirrus. Very well designed and constructed aircraft. No BLS though.
- ultraturtle
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Re: Cirrus Jet reviewed...
Quick reality check.
The DA42 VI and Cirrus Jet can both haul an 800 lb payload 900 nautical miles at max gross weight with 45 minutes reserve.
The Diamond DA42 VI does it in 5 hours at 180 kTAS, 75% power, 13.2 gph and total fuel consumption of 66 gallons of Jet A. (actual numbers, I've done it myself)
The Cirrus Jet does it in 3:45 at 240 kTAS, economy cruise, 42 gph and total fuel consumption of 158 gallons of Jet A. (Cirrus marketing numbers)
33% speed increase at the cost of 140% increase in fuel costs alone? Insurance and maintenance something of a similar order of magnitude jump for so little a performance gain?
Factor in the bleakness of options in event of a single engine failure, and I cannot imagine a rational aircraft purchaser choosing the Cirrus Vision Jet over a DA42 VI for about half the price, similarly equipped.
The DA42 VI and Cirrus Jet can both haul an 800 lb payload 900 nautical miles at max gross weight with 45 minutes reserve.
The Diamond DA42 VI does it in 5 hours at 180 kTAS, 75% power, 13.2 gph and total fuel consumption of 66 gallons of Jet A. (actual numbers, I've done it myself)
The Cirrus Jet does it in 3:45 at 240 kTAS, economy cruise, 42 gph and total fuel consumption of 158 gallons of Jet A. (Cirrus marketing numbers)
33% speed increase at the cost of 140% increase in fuel costs alone? Insurance and maintenance something of a similar order of magnitude jump for so little a performance gain?
Factor in the bleakness of options in event of a single engine failure, and I cannot imagine a rational aircraft purchaser choosing the Cirrus Vision Jet over a DA42 VI for about half the price, similarly equipped.
- Colin
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Re: Cirrus Jet reviewed...
The Cirrus has a couple more seats, doesn't it? And it's pressurized, which is a different level of comfort. I'd compare it to a DA62 instead, and point out that the DA62 can't get over some of the same weather (anyone know the ceiling?). But I did those same numbers when I happened to see the Vision out in the wild and I just can't see tripling my fuel cost for all my trips.
Colin Summers, PP Multi-Engine IFR, ~3,000hrs
colin@mightycheese.com * send email rather than PM
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- CFIDave
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Re: Cirrus Jet reviewed...
DA62 is certified to 20,000 feet (although it will climb to over 30,000). I'm sure the Cirrus Jet is more comfortable for passengers flying up high being pressurized; no need for a "rubber hose up your nose."
But 65 gph vs. 15 gph in cruise for a DA62 is quite a difference. On a per-mile basis the Cirrus Jet consumes 2 1/2 times the fuel. The extra speed of a jet is nice but since I like flying, I don't mind the slightly greater time in the air going somewhere in a DA62. Yesterday I flew non-stop from St. Louis, MO to the Washington, DC area in 3 hours 20 minutes, which was still a comfortable amount of time in the air. I could have easily knocked off another 30 minutes if I had used O2 to fly higher and take greater advantage of stronger tailwinds, or cruised at 95% power instead of only 75%. (At 11,000 feet 75% power I was seeing 175 kt TAS, moving across the ground at 185-190 knots due to a slight tailwind.)
Don't forget that when flying a Cirrus Jet you'll still be burning more than 40 gph on the ground just taxiing and waiting for your clearance. And you don't have the option of flying at low altitudes to avoid strong headwinds, since jet engine fuel consumption is much worse down low. (On my trip westbound out to St. Louis a week ago I flew down at 6000 feet to experience "only" 25-30 knot headwinds that were more than twice that in the flight levels where a jet has to fly.)
With such low fuel consumption I also don't feel guilty taking our plane out for a "hundred dollar hamburger" on a nice flying day. You'd have a very hard time justifying that in a jet.
But 65 gph vs. 15 gph in cruise for a DA62 is quite a difference. On a per-mile basis the Cirrus Jet consumes 2 1/2 times the fuel. The extra speed of a jet is nice but since I like flying, I don't mind the slightly greater time in the air going somewhere in a DA62. Yesterday I flew non-stop from St. Louis, MO to the Washington, DC area in 3 hours 20 minutes, which was still a comfortable amount of time in the air. I could have easily knocked off another 30 minutes if I had used O2 to fly higher and take greater advantage of stronger tailwinds, or cruised at 95% power instead of only 75%. (At 11,000 feet 75% power I was seeing 175 kt TAS, moving across the ground at 185-190 knots due to a slight tailwind.)
Don't forget that when flying a Cirrus Jet you'll still be burning more than 40 gph on the ground just taxiing and waiting for your clearance. And you don't have the option of flying at low altitudes to avoid strong headwinds, since jet engine fuel consumption is much worse down low. (On my trip westbound out to St. Louis a week ago I flew down at 6000 feet to experience "only" 25-30 knot headwinds that were more than twice that in the flight levels where a jet has to fly.)
With such low fuel consumption I also don't feel guilty taking our plane out for a "hundred dollar hamburger" on a nice flying day. You'd have a very hard time justifying that in a jet.
Epic Aircraft E1000 GX
Former DA40XLS, DA42-VI, and DA62 owner
ATP, CFI, CFI-I, MEI
Former DA40XLS, DA42-VI, and DA62 owner
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- carym
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Re: Cirrus Jet reviewed...
It's also about flying a shiny new jet versus flying a stodgy prop plane, economics be damned.Tommy wrote:It's all about mission Dave, it's all about mission.
Cary
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- CFIDave
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Re: Cirrus Jet reviewed...
Good thing I don't suffer from "shiny jet syndrome" Of course my pilot father used to insist that "Real men fly taildraggers."
Epic Aircraft E1000 GX
Former DA40XLS, DA42-VI, and DA62 owner
ATP, CFI, CFI-I, MEI
Former DA40XLS, DA42-VI, and DA62 owner
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