What comes after a DA40?

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jb642DA
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Re: What comes after a DA40?

Post by jb642DA »

Antoine wrote:Hi John / Tim.
> John thanks for posting. I'd love to hear more about the Epic. I find it fascinating. I think it is to the TBM what the Extra 400 is to the Malibu/Mirage. Especially interested in performance, payload and the "quirks list".
Hi Antoine - I think the Epic is Neema's!

I've been following the development of the "certified" version - https://epicaircraft.com/
Here are the specs for it - https://epicaircraft.com/epic-certified ... fications/

John
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Re: What comes after a DA40?

Post by neema »

Antoine wrote:Hi John / Tim.
> John thanks for posting. I'd love to hear more about the Epic. I find it fascinating. I think it is to the TBM what the Extra 400 is to the Malibu/Mirage. Especially interested in performance, payload and the "quirks list".
> Tim: the Extra 400 is certified (both FAA and EASA) and also FIKI.
You must be talking about the Extra 500 which only obtained EASA certification and no FIKI. The 500 is the turbine version of the 400. My 400 has a piston engine.
The biggest quirk is the autopilot. I'm used to GFC700s (the gold standard for GA). Stec 2100 and Trutrak Sorcerers require "flying" the autopilot when they have their tantrums. I also hand fly approaches now but find it very enjoyable. The Stec plays nicer because it at least has a flight director. Trutraks required flying raw data (needles and altimeter)

Other big gripes: full de-ice capabilty. The two things it lacks are an inertial separator and proper windshield heat (only has defrost inside). I know it's not certified for FIKI, but in a plane this capable, I want the ability to deal with ice like any other plane.

Lastly... wish the plane had a backup source of power. We're looking to throw a 100 amp alternator on there. Right now there's just one generator, main ship batteries (60 amp hours at best), and standby gauge batteries (a few hours).

The benefits of payload, space inside, and speed/efficiency outweigh those for us in our neighborhood and mission profile. Can still squeeze in 200 hours a year without hitting too much adverse weather that forces us to scrub a flight
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Re: What comes after a DA40?

Post by Antoine »

I suppose the certified version will have FIKI? Maybe you can wait and have the improvements added to your plane? What a beauty btw... My girlfriend asked me for your email address :shock:
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Re: What comes after a DA40?

Post by neema »

For sure the certified plane will have FIKI. With time, us experimental owners will hopefully get some trickle down from the production model and a little peace of mind with their FIKI trials.
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Re: What comes after a DA40?

Post by Antoine »

Trying to sum it up. After a DA40, Diamond aviators who did not want to go for a Diamond twin have opted for the following.

TWIN
- Aerostar

SINGLE CERTIFIED

- Cirrus SR22
- Mooney Rocket
- Extra 400

EXPERIMENTAL

- Columbia ES

Did I miss someone?

I believe each one of us had their mission and well thought out motives.
Maybe we could sum them up in a series of short posts for the benefit of others? I'll start!

My primary mission is a 400 NM commute with 2-4 people and luggage above mountainous terrain and in potentially icing conditions. So I needed a tough FIKI platform with a powerful powerplant to get us on top quick.
I looked at the SR 22 and did not like its flying characteristics. I loved the Columbia 350 but it was not FIKI and somehow I did not find one that took my heart. I also looked at a DA42 TDI upgrade project but that also was not to be. An experimental is not IFR-legal in Europe. The DA62 was a nice plane to fly, but it's huge wingspan and price tag ruled it out.

The engineer in me loved the technical challenge of refurbishing and upgrading an Extra 400.
It was almost like building my own plane.

I got a lot more capability than originally required -at a cost- but would do it again in a heartbeat.

Pressurization is an incredibly valuable goodie that we do not really appreciate until we actually have it. And cabin room so generous that one can actually leave the cockpit and MOVE AROUND is another huge benefit.
And finally the fun factor of flying a plane that literally draws curious people every time you land is also nice. I made quite a few friends thanks to my plane.

Who's next?
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Re: What comes after a DA40?

Post by TimS »

For the next four/five years:
Weekend mission 500nm range, 150+ KTAS without wearing O2, carry 450lbs of people and bags.
Day trip mission: 150nm, carry 700lbs of people and bags.

I fly over glorified hills (called the White Mountains, Smoky Mountains, Appalachian Mountains...) on the east coast of the USA, and at night a lot. Therefore, I have a strong preference for two engines or a chute. Not a decision point, but definitely a plus factor.

The OpEx costs for a DA-42 depending on engine vintage range from roughly $180 to $220. Cirrus SR22 pretty much regardless of vintage is a $200. I will skip all the others....

With OpEx about the same, the major difference was capital costs. I discussed DA-42 partnerships with three different guys/gals. In all cases, we ended up looking at a price point around $500K after acquisition and WAAS upgrades.
The SR22 was 160K purchase, and needs 35K in avionics (WAAS, ADS-B) upgrades.

I ended up in a 2003 SR22 G1 partnership.

Tim
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Re: What comes after a DA40?

Post by Star57 »

Antoine wrote:Trying to sum it up. After a DA40, Diamond aviators who did not want to go for a Diamond twin have opted for the following.

TWIN
- Aerostar

SINGLE CERTIFIED

- Cirrus SR22
- Mooney Rocket
- Extra 400

EXPERIMENTAL

- Columbia ES

Did I miss someone?

I believe each one of us had their mission and well thought out motives.
Maybe we could sum them up in a series of short posts for the benefit of others? I'll start!

My primary mission is a 400 NM commute with 2-4 people and luggage above mountainous terrain and in potentially icing conditions. So I needed a tough FIKI platform with a powerful powerplant to get us on top quick.
I looked at the SR 22 and did not like its flying characteristics. I loved the Columbia 350 but it was not FIKI and somehow I did not find one that took my heart. I also looked at a DA42 TDI upgrade project but that also was not to be. An experimental is not IFR-legal in Europe. The DA62 was a nice plane to fly, but it's huge wingspan and price tag ruled it out.

The engineer in me loved the technical challenge of refurbishing and upgrading an Extra 400.
It was almost like building my own plane.

I got a lot more capability than originally required -at a cost- but would do it again in a heartbeat.

Pressurization is an incredibly valuable goodie that we do not really appreciate until we actually have it. And cabin room so generous that one can actually leave the cockpit and MOVE AROUND is another huge benefit.
And finally the fun factor of flying a plane that literally draws curious people every time you land is also nice. I made quite a few friends thanks to my plane.

Who's next?
Antoine, it’s actually a Lancair ES DD for dual doors, aside from the pain associated with learning about an experimental AC that I didn’t build, I’m pleased with it.
I get approximately 175 TAS at 10.5K and burn average 14 gallons per hour, with 109 gallons that gives me long legs...if my bladder can hold it makes for a simple trip.
Just did recently Scottsdale AZ to Calgary Canada, 1070 NM average 165 NM/ per hour, that’s with a 15 to 20 knot head wind.
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Re: What comes after a DA40?

Post by Antoine »

Time to revive this thread?
It's been 3 years and 400 flight hours so far with the Extra 400 and I realized yesterday how much progress was made along this somewhat unusual route. I thought this was worth sharing.

The Extra 400 is certainly not an easy ride, but it is one hell of an airplane ! It has taught me painful lessons on the limits and compromises of the combination of a turbocharged piston engine with a pressurized retractable gear aircraft but I believe this is not Extra 400 specific. Operators of PA46 and C210 know what I am talking about.

I have also learnt that it is not possible to hand over responsibility for this exotic bird to any maintenance organisation – this is really as experimental as a certified aircraft can get.
If you don't take «maintenance manager» responsibility you are essentially grounded as « they » come up with a sequence of solutions to a sequence of new issues at their own pace.

Parts sourcing, diagnostics, decision making on compromises and substantial bills are all on the menu of an Extra 400 owner. This has made me seek contact with fellow owners and start a « knowledge sharing » process that is proving to be invaluable.

I now have 2 weeks in march earmarked « Extra 400 annual ».
Owner assisted annuals help me find out about less obvious looming issues, make joint decisions about fixes and improvements and remove some of the sheer manpower cost from the bill.
I find the exercise extremely rewarding and it has considerably increased my level of trust in the aircraft.

On the « flying » side, this aircraft is simply in a class of its own. The combination of comfort and very high capability is unique.

Which brings us to what made me want to write this post : we arrived from our atlantic hideaway in LSGG Geneva yesterday after sunset, amid a last salvo of airliners.
We were at MTOW upon take-off with 3 on board and near full fuel and climbed to FL230 using 88% (climb) power.
It was mostly a 1000 ft/min climb to FL200 with a gradual power reduction above so we got there in about 25 minutes.
Economy cruise at FL230 yielded between 194 and 197 KTAS, burning 73 liters per hour (18.5 GPH) with very relaxed engine settings (2250/29.5). Cabin altitude was 6'000 ft and there was hardly any vibration. My girlfriend was sleeping in the cabin, legs comfortably stretched.

A nice tailwind was forecast and it did indeed materialize.

So here we are chugging along at FL230 and 230+ knots ground speed crossing France from west to east in less than two hours.

Marseille ATC informs us of traffic « one thousand feet below your cleared altitude, opposite direction  » and an Embraer regional jet dashes by - below us. Big smile ! As we approach Switzerland, the Alps form a majestic pinkish backdrop, especially enjoyable from our altitude.
Several successive layers of white ridges and valleys can be seen, with the Mont Blanc and Dents du Midi standing proud above the rest. Sadly a bit hazy and dark, so no good photos.

ATC keep us high until the last moment.
When they finally clear us for descent on the DEPUL3N arrival, all conditions are met for a high speed downhill exercise and I decide to go for it. So we keep cruise power and add a little bit of fuel flow in anticipation of a TIT increase. Concentration is the name of the game now.
The nose points down and airspeed builds up while we go through the descent checklist.

Ground speed hits 280 but IAS is still in the green arc. The pressurization controller is working hard to keep up with the steep descent.
ATC informs us that they have a shortcut in store for us. Moments later we get cleared to 7000 ft and the ILS04. The shortcut is really radical – despite reducing power, we're still doing 228 KTAS and descending at 1600 ft per minute just before intercepting the ILS.
Capture d’écran 2019-05-07 à 09.45.40.png

I am using the AP in heading and VS mode for this – I know it won't do a clean intercept if I let it do the full job and there is simply not enough time to fix it after that. I got used to this weird « hybrid » flying, using the AP within its limited capabilities.

ATC instruct an airliner in final to keep speed up due to traffic behind – that's us ! Big smile.
Then as we are established on the LOC, still hot and high, the tower controller instructs us to reduce speed to 160 KIAS and keep until 4 miles. We're doing 190+ indicated and are above the glideslope at this point. Gear out is not an option as the 140 KIAS Vlo limit would slow us down too much. We too have traffic in our back...
Autopilot off, I gradually reduce power to... not much above idle with my thumb proactively pressing the « gear alarm disconnect » button, The water cooled engine can take this without pain. CHTs drop from 210 to 175, that's it... If you forget the « gear alarm » button, the siren will scare the hell off your passengers, so I always warn them in advance, just in case...
The aircraft is very slippery when clean, but we manage to settle into the glideslope and reestablish descent power. Finally 160 KIAS, -800 fpm we're all set and stabilised.
We keep this until 2 miles and then another pull up to 140 and power cut to extend gear and flaps.
Final after sunset is yet another beautiful sight – we land long and fast to expedite exit on Y.
As we reverse direction and taxi to our hangar, we can see the sequence of 4 aircraft behind us.
One take off and three landings in sequence with their landing lights on the darker sky.
We arrive at our hangar position and yet another pleasant surprise : the friendly ground staff have opened the doors for us and let us park right in front while guarding from ground traffic.
Pushback is done in a few minutes. As we leave the aircraft I put my hand on the upper cowling where there used to be a very hot spot from inadequate air circulation around the turbocharger.
Not anymore. Everything nice and cool. That little mod during last annual worked like a charm...

As we walk to the general aviation terminal , the airport has become strangely quiet.
I am tired but happy beyond description - so grateful for the privilege of flying and for this incredibly capable aircraft I have put a crazy bet upon.
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Re: What comes after a DA40?

Post by CFIDave »

Antoine's story reminded me of the flight made about a week ago in our DA62: Non-stop from St. Louis, MO to the Washington, DC area in only 3 hours due to tailwinds.

Spent most of the flight cruising up at 17,000 feet (using O2 cannulas that you forgot you were wearing) and never saw the ground the entire time due to a low undercast covering the entire eastern US, while relaxing to SXM satellite music. Smooth clear air at that altitude despite multiple reports of turbulence both above and below us. With Austro engines set at only 75% power we were doing more than 180 KTAS, burning just under 15 gph (total for both engines), but doing around 220 knots over the ground.

The challenge we had was at our destination since we were going "too fast." We needed to lose a lot of altitude while experiencing 40+ knot tailwinds. Washington Center asked us to be down to 11,000 feet by 25 miles before the MRB VOR, so this was a perfect opportunity to program the GFC700's "Along Track Offset" VNAV feature, which automatically calculated the appropriate Top of Descent (TOD) location along our flight path. However before we got to TOD, ATC called back reminding us to begin our descent because they thought we had forgotten to descend. I had to explain to the controller that we would be beginning our descent in just a few more miles, and would still make the 11K target altitude per ATC's original request.

Once the VNAV function kicked in at TOD (autopilot maintaining a constant 3 degree descent angle), we were descending at about 1600 fpm due to the strong tailwinds. After picking up speed to 245 KTAS during the descent we pulled the throttles to idle (triggering the gear up warning) to try and slow down, as ATC cleared us further down to 4000 feet. No need to worry about shock cooling with liquid-cooled engines. But we really needed to slow down as we started picking up turbulence caused by the winds interacting with the Appalachian and Blue Ridge mountains as we neared our destination of KJYO -- so we dropped the gear early. Since the DA62 landing gear can be lowered at any speed up to redline, they make great speed brakes.

As we arrived in the vicinity of the airport and got handed off to the tower, the winds were more than 20G30 at about a 30 degree angle to the single runway. My pilot wife made a nice landing, helped by the DA62s trailing-link gear that allowed her to firmly plant one wheel down first without bouncing.

If only ALL of our flights had such nice tailwinds!
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Former DA40XLS, DA42-VI, and DA62 owner
ATP, CFI, CFI-I, MEI
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Re: What comes after a DA40?

Post by Antoine »

Wow! Thank you for the thanks :)
Since the post seems to be of interest here some illustrations of the story!

The trip on flightradar24.com
Capture d’écran 2019-05-07 à 16.36.32.png
Flight profile
Capture d’écran 2019-05-07 à 16.25.01.png
Short final LSGG, sorry for reflection, photo courtesy of Hugo M.
Capture d’écran 2019-05-07 à 16.39.42.png
N121AG "Galatea" at LFEY - its favorite destination photo courtesy of Sébastien S.
Capture d’écran 2019-05-07 à 16.35.16.png
Capture d’écran 2019-05-07 à 16.39.42.png
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