Finally the Launch??

Any DA50 related topics.

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MackAttack
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Re: Finally the Launch??

Post by MackAttack »

I think Dave is spot on. I am a huge DA62 fanboy, but agree the posted numbers for the -50 are disappointing. 181 max cruise speed (much, much lower than comparable figures for the 42 or 62 as noted). 50-gallon fuel tank and relatively low range as a result. Quoted 750 nm max range, which is presumably at long-range cruise (typically around 50% power). I can't imagine it flying much faster than a DA40 to get that range if the max cruise is 181 at FL200. As noted, this is slow for a retract and will likely be beaten by a Bonanza, which seems to me to be ridiculous from a marketing perspective. I can see Textron using that in their marketing. I do think it's possible that they will offer a long-range tank option and higher gross weight option in the North American market, but as noted, once you add another 20-30 gallons of fuel, air conditioning, etc., your useful load will drop a fair amount.

I do know that Diamond was very interested in an auto-land system and demonstrated one a few years back in a 42. If (and that's a big if) Garmin can pull off auto-land in a FADEC diesel, they would have to (a) come up with an auto-throttle for it versus a turbine, which is more complex given the different systems, and (b) make an auto-throttle and auto-land system work with a G1000 NXi, versus the G3000 hardware. I have no idea how feasible those things are and either way, they will likely take time and cost $$$ and may not be retrofittable to early serial numbers. So don't hold your breath for it.

I also think that the Austros have proven their reliability over the last several years. But a brand new diesel from CMI??? Not so much. I'm not sure that I want to be the guinea pig, thank you very much. CMI developed that engine for the SR22, on the plan that Cirrus would want to sell a diesel into the global market. But if that engine only has the performance discussed above, I can see why Cirrus has thus far passed on it - the SR22T has a max speed of 215 knots at FL250 (not that any actually flies it like that) but is quite speedy with the 315-hp CMI gas engine; I don't know why they would give up the performance. It looks to me like you'd need a 350-hp diesel version to match the avgas engine performance. And just think of the performance degradation with fixed gear vs. retracts. No, I don't think Cirrus is going to lose a lot of sleep over this airplane, at least for North American sales. However, there will be customers for a comfortable, and reasonably fast diesel RG single in Europe and other countries so I think Diamond will make money on this airplane regardless.
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Re: Finally the Launch??

Post by Antoine »

According to the engine's data sheet the critical altitude is 8000 ft.

Based upon my experience with an aircraft of the same MTOW and an additional 50 HP, I think 300 HP (actually even less, they claim 300 DIN PS, not 300 SAE HP) won't be enough to operate safely in high density altitude take-offs.
In my experience 350 HP is a bare minimum and 400 HP the sweet spot.

Private buyers will probably find the specs unacceptable, especially range... 750 Nm at "max range" settings is a joke.

I guess the DA50 may sell to specialised services companies in parts of the world where AVGAS is unavailable and/or politically incorrect and they somehow manage to get a mechanic trained on the CD-300.
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Re: Finally the Launch??

Post by ememic99 »

Really disappointing numbers - my DA42 with CD-155 engines beats it in every aspect except in useful load. I don't see any market for it with that range (what's real range when flying 181 KTAS at FL160?), probably not so fast if you want range (I guess 150 KTAS), single engine, no chute.
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Re: Finally the Launch??

Post by Chris B »

It is fascinating to compare the responses on DAN with BeechTalk.

The BeechTalk crowd is not normally effusive about Diamonds, but is mostly quite complimentary about the DA50:
BeechTalk wrote:This is a very exciting new plane. Speed, range, payload, and packaging appear to be right on target. Plus the Diamond products seem to have very good quality control and finishing.
BeechTalk wrote:Pretty neat. [with link to promo video]
BeechTalk wrote:Looks awesome. I love the DA40 except you really feel the bumps.
BeechTalk wrote:Diamond is picking a good niche. 5-seat, larger fuselage than Cirrus but similar performance due to the retractable gear aerodynamics. Diesel engine for better efficiency and cheaper fuel (especially outside the US).
BeechTalk wrote:44' wingspan is going to be a nonstarter for many people; hangars that wide are hard to come by in a lot of places. Also, why only 50 gallons? The plane is gorgeous, I hope it sells!

https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=183563

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Re: Finally the Launch??

Post by MackAttack »

If they offer a higher MGW version with a long-range tank option in North America, that will help things a lot. But still underwhelming from a performance perspective relative to the twins and to other HP singles.
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Re: Finally the Launch??

Post by Star57 »

This aircraft in my opinion is designed for Europe, they never understood North America GA needs and wants, when the Chinese bought DA they also bought a mind set and a culture, they took the little guy out of the pictures, but his shade remains there.
It’s hard to teach an old dog new tricks
Cirrus has done to other GA manufacturers what Lexus did to MB and BMW....they ate their Lunch
DA should have considered the EPS flat V8 Turbo Diesel or the Lycoming iE2 FADEC ....That would have been an airplane to beat, and yes BRS.
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Re: Finally the Launch??

Post by TwinStarScott »

The DA50 was discussed on Max Trescott’s podcast this week. Starts at 8:39 (episode #154)
https://aviationnewstalk.com/
To add your aircraft to the G1000 petition (listed below) please send me a PM - thanks!

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Re: Finally the Launch??

Post by Davestation »

Chris B wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:47 pm
It is fascinating to compare the responses on DAN with BeechTalk.

The BeechTalk crowd is not normally effusive about Diamonds, but is mostly quite complimentary about the DA50:
BeechTalk wrote:This is a very exciting new plane. Speed, range, payload, and packaging appear to be right on target. Plus the Diamond products seem to have very good quality control and finishing.
BeechTalk wrote:Pretty neat. [with link to promo video]
BeechTalk wrote:Looks awesome. I love the DA40 except you really feel the bumps.
BeechTalk wrote:Diamond is picking a good niche. 5-seat, larger fuselage than Cirrus but similar performance due to the retractable gear aerodynamics. Diesel engine for better efficiency and cheaper fuel (especially outside the US).
BeechTalk wrote:44' wingspan is going to be a nonstarter for many people; hangars that wide are hard to come by in a lot of places. Also, why only 50 gallons? The plane is gorgeous, I hope it sells!

https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=183563

Chris

That is pretty interesting. Well, if they meant for the 50 to tap into a market they didn’t already own it seems they’re on the right track. A lot of people are comparing it to the 62 - is that the goal here, for Diamond to transition you out of their own twin into another single? And I imagine that some people really only want one engine for whatever reason.

And people are saying why no chute? Why yes chute? Diamond doesn’t have a chute because it doesn’t need one. You only spin a cirrus once after all.
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Re: Finally the Launch??

Post by AndrewM »

Dave I agree with you that the spin characteristics of the Diamond will not require a chute. However, in this class of plane it is much more of a cross country, true IFR machine. If I were over mountains and outside glide distance of a field, having that chute would be kinda helpful in the unlikely event of an engine failure.

Also over water, again with an engine failure I would much, much prefer to pull the chute than glide down and hit the water and try not to kart-wheel. You may get dragged along by the chute a bit once hitting the water, but I think that is more preferable than hitting water at just above stall speed, unless you are gliding directly into a 30kt+ headwind!

So, just my POV there is no doubt in my mind that a chute over rugged terrain or water is a much more preferable option than gliding down.

Lastly, for Diamond to REALLY take share from Cirrus they need the chute. People can knock the chute as much as they want, but the fact is that Cirrus dominates in a large part because GA pilots, and their spouses, feel safer with the chute.

Imagine the DA50 with Autoland and the Chute? With the integrity of the fuel tank system, handling safety characteristics as well I think DAI could have taken massive share from Cirrus.

I am on my second DA40 and at some stage, probably 3 years from now will be looking to step up to a more capable plane for a variety of reasons. I have flown the G2 Vision Jet and also a G6 SR22. Enjoyed them both. And while the hand flying experience is not as fun as DAI, for the mission of personal and business flying they hit the mark, very well. I was eagerly awaiting the specs on the DA50, and while it looks really nice, I was somewhat disappointed. Will fly a DA62 at some stage, as I will be considering that one as well. However, if the DA50 had a chute, I would not be motivated to look at twins. And David this is where I think you are spot on... if Diamond put the chute in the DA50 (even as an option) then there is clear segmentation of the market. By not putting the chute in I think they have made a big strategic mistake.

No doubt the DA50 will sell. For sure some DAI owners will step up to this plane. But in my view (and being a potential customer for this product) DAI owners will continue to seriously look at converting to Cirrus, however I do not think you will see many SR22 owners convert to the DA50. You will see some SR22 owners go to the DA62, but looking at the specs for the DA50... not so sure DIA will steal much share from the SR22 crowd. BTW, just checked on COPA, and unless I am not looking in the correct place, no recent discussion on the DA50 since the launch. Compare that with the healthy discussion, and excitement regarding the DA62 on that forum.

I really want Diamond to be a highly successful company, but they messed up a great opportunity here.

Anyhow, time will tell! Diamond will continue to do well, but as you say David they may take away from their own DA62 sales vs taking share from Cirrus. What a shame.
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Re: Finally the Launch??

Post by CFIDave »

AndrewM wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 1:13 pm
You will see some SR22 owners go to the DA62, but looking at the specs for the DA50... not so sure DIA will steal much share from the SR22 crowd. BTW, just checked on COPA, and unless I am not looking in the correct place, no recent discussion on the DA50 since the launch. Compare that with the healthy discussion, and excitement regarding the DA62 on that forum.
Nearly half of my DA62 customers migrated from a Cirrus. One even survived a Cirrus 'chute pull when his engine failed, although his wife broke multiple ribs when the SR22 fell out of the treetops where it initially came down.

Part of the reason for comparing the DA50 to the DA62 is that the planes are so similar -- not at all surprising given that the DA62 was derived from the DA50. Rumor (folklore?) has it that Christian Dries was having a few beers with his engineers at the Katana Cafe one evening when they came up with the idea of marrying the wings and engines of the DA42-VI twin to the fuselage of the then-stillborn DA50 single (which at the time lacked a suitable engine). Only about 18 months later, the first DA62 prototype (back then called the DA52) had its first flight.
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