New Owner - advice on configuration

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CFIDave
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Re: New Owner - advice on configuration

Post by CFIDave »

nworthin wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 5:40 pmYou showed, in your aircraft that only very rarely and then only for a few seconds does TAS detect anything that the ADBS system didn't.
What I was trying to say is that I often see TWO targets displayed for the same intruder aircraft -- it shows up both via ADS-B and TAS before the GTX345R's correlation function can take effect and eliminate the redundant TAS target. Only once did "TAS detect anything that the ADS-B system didn't." It was almost always the opposite: ADS-B picked up targets that TAS never displayed. When both types of targets were displayed, ADS-B displayed the target sooner because of longer range than TAS.
nworthin wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 5:40 pmSince you need radar coverage and a nearby ground station for ADSB to work,
As noted by others, this isn't true. The GTX345R will pick up most ADS-B Out targets directly aircraft-to-aircraft, independently of any ground stations or radar coverage. When I'm flying in the Bahamas, I see lots of ADS-B targets despite the lack of any ground ADS-B infrastructure in the islands.
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Rich
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Re: New Owner - advice on configuration

Post by Rich »

The misinformation I see all around about the role of ground stations in the ADS-B environment is amazingly ubiquitous. I put it this way: If all aircraft were equipped with ADS-B out ground stations would have no role in aircraft-aircraft traffic information. They would remain to serve ATC and to transmit things like weather and TFRs to aircraft.
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photoSteveZ
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Re: New Owner - advice on configuration

Post by photoSteveZ »

I’m interested in the TAS question because I intend to fly my 62 to Europe and Scandinavia via the non-HF North Atlantic route. My sense is that it will be useful having the Avidyne system in Canada and Europe/Scandinavia. Am I wrong?

Which brings up the question of ADF/DME for the same missions: totally outmoded, or a potential lifesaver?
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nworthin
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Re: New Owner - advice on configuration

Post by nworthin »

TAS will pick up aircraft that ADSB will not show you when all these are true:
1. The other aircraft does not have ADS-B out operating (If you have ADS-B installed by regulation it is always to be operating regardless of airspace).
2. The other aircraft does have an operating MODE C (which is NOT required to be operating even if installed, except in certain airspace).
3. You are not in range of both an ADS-B ground station and radar interrogations in the area.
Rich, I appreciate the logic formality! I really thought I understood this but, based upon the the above and Dave's posts, I went back to sources and realize that my understanding, while largely correct some time ago (pre-ADSB mandate), it's now (as shown by items 1-3 above) largely obsolete. I'm gonna have to really consider now whether the corner cases justify an additional $19k+.
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Re: New Owner - advice on configuration

Post by CFIDave »

photoSteveZ wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:31 am I’m interested in the TAS question because I intend to fly my 62 to Europe and Scandinavia via the non-HF North Atlantic route. My sense is that it will be useful having the Avidyne system in Canada and Europe/Scandinavia. Am I wrong?

Which brings up the question of ADF/DME for the same missions: totally outmoded, or a potential lifesaver?
If you're going to fly around Europe in your DA62 (where many non-ADS-B Out aircraft exist), then having the Avidyne TAS would be worthwhile.

But I can't see much value in ADF/DME in an N-registered aircraft, since your GPS is a more accurate substitute.
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Re: New Owner - advice on configuration

Post by Oshkosh99 »

"As noted by others, this isn't true. The GTX345R will pick up most ADS-B Out targets directly aircraft-to-aircraft, independently of any ground stations or radar coverage. When I'm flying in the Bahamas, I see lots of ADS-B targets despite the lack of any ground ADS-B infrastructure in the islands."

CFIDave and others: just to clarify: do ADS-B out transponders send the aircraft position continuously WITHOUT being interrogated by a ground station? I thought transponders only RESPOND to a ground station signal, and then other transponders in the area with ADS-B In capability just merely pick up this signal of an interrogated ADS-B out transponder?

Or do modern ADS-B transponders actually interrogate actively all others around without groundstations involved? Did not think so but honestly I don't know. ...
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Re: New Owner - advice on configuration

Post by TimS »

To clarify. The GTX345R broadcasts on 1090 with Extended Squitter (ES). The ES effectively means the GTX345R is including the position and ADS-B data in the 1090 Mode-C broadcast message. Other planes are very likely doing the same.
In addition, the GTX345R receives both the 1090 and 978 UAT signals. So any plane broadcasting on either of those signals will be picked and received by the GTX345R and displayed.
Technically, the transponders only react to a request or ping. However, from a practical standpoint, there is enough Mode-C ping stations, along with active traffic systems on planes broadcasting a ping, that the chance your ADS-B is not broadcasting your position once a second is fairly low.

I do not know of any ADS-B transponder that actually includes the ping to find other planes. Thet so far has always been a separate product part of an active traffic system usually included in airlines and business jets (sometimes even turbo-props).

The ground station for ADS-B effectively does the following:
1. Broadcasts the mode-c ping, asking all transponders to reply.
2. Antenna system to capture all broadcasts and sends the data to ATC
3. Broadcasts weather data
4. If there is a very rare plane which only has a single frequency receiver, the ground station will re-broadcast position information from planes within the defined traffic circle on the alternate frequency.

You will notice, none of that is required in the Bahamas... (it is always sunny unless there is a huricane, so no weather data, not much traffic)

Tim
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Re: New Owner - advice on configuration

Post by Rich »

ADS-B transponders actively transmit their 1090ES packets once per second without being interrogated. This is also true of the 978UAT devices. This so that the traffic detection can fully operate in remote areas where there are neither radar facilities nor ADS-B towers.
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Re: New Owner - advice on configuration

Post by TimS »

Rich wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 3:28 pm ADS-B transponders actively transmit their 1090ES packets once per second without being interrogated. This is also true of the 978UAT devices. This so that the traffic detection can fully operate in remote areas where there are neither radar facilities nor ADS-B towers.

Rich,

You sure? I looked for actual confirmation of this in the spec a while back and could not confirm it. When I asked Garmin a number of years ago, their answer was only in interrogation.

Tim
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Rich
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Re: New Owner - advice on configuration

Post by Rich »

TimS wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 3:33 pm
Rich wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 3:28 pm ADS-B transponders actively transmit their 1090ES packets once per second without being interrogated. This is also true of the 978UAT devices. This so that the traffic detection can fully operate in remote areas where there are neither radar facilities nor ADS-B towers.

Rich,

You sure? I looked for actual confirmation of this in the spec a while back and could not confirm it. When I asked Garmin a number of years ago, their answer was only in interrogation.

Tim
Absolutely sure. It's core to the ADS-B operation itself. Interrogations only happen on 1030 MHz and only during a radar sweep. Typically this means a 12-second lag for mode C guys. For the ADS-B-equipped I can track with negligible delay.

Check out this link: https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/he ... oadcast%20(ADS,interface%20between%20aircraft%20and%20ATC.
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