Jet-A vs Diesel fuel for Austro engines

Any DA62 related topics

Moderators: Rick, Lance Murray

User avatar
Sandy
3 Diamonds Member
3 Diamonds Member
FIRST NAME: Sanford
Aircraft: DA40
Registration: N159PS
Airport: KPDK

Posts: 179
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2016 12:30 pm
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 23 times

Jet-A vs Diesel fuel for Austro engines

Post by Sandy » Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:28 am

Out of curiosity... Is there a difference between Jet-A and the automotive diesel fuel that I use in my Diesel Cayenne? Can either be used in the Austro engines?

Sandy
User avatar
Pehu
2 Diamonds Member
2 Diamonds Member
FIRST NAME: Pekka
Aircraft: DA40NG
Registration: OHASM
Airport: EFHF

Posts: 37
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2016 7:47 pm
Has thanked: 8 times
Been thanked: 3 times

Jet-A vs Diesel fuel for Austro engines

Post by Pehu » Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:49 am

Sandy wrote:Out of curiosity... Is there a difference between Jet-A and the automotive diesel fuel that I use in my Diesel Cayenne? Can either be used in the Austro engines?
In DA40/DA42 you can use automotive diesel. I have been flying my DA40NG with diesel a lot (Jet A1 is not available in remote fields that I do travel quite some).

However, it is not that simple. To my understanding, in some older versions of AE300 engine, you need a MÄM to use normal diesel. It adds a page to AFM and presumably something is done by technician. I was looking this option to our club's DA40NG but never really got a definitive answer what needs to be done. After that I actually got my own DA40NG and when I flew that to Finland from LOAN, I also visited the Austro factory and asked the tech people about diesel. Their answer was, that the new engines were all diesel compliant.

You just need to check the fuel grades & outside temps when flying/starting the engine (we use winter diesel here in Finland, so the temps were not an issue really). There is a page about those in the engine manual: different winter grades get you different startup temps. It is about Cold Filter Plugging Point (CFPP). I haven't found these to be issue in Finland's sometime vey low winter temps - but I try to use JET as much as possible especially on winter times.

I also wondered if DA62 was ok with diesel few weeks back. So if any owners can let us know if AE330 engine is happy with it ;)

Edit: Check this page for limitations
http://support.diamond-air.at/fileadmin ... O04-r0.pdf
User avatar
CFIDave
5 Diamonds Member
5 Diamonds Member
FIRST NAME: Dave
Aircraft: DA62
Registration: N62DV
Airport: KJYO

Posts: 1628
Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:40 pm
Has thanked: 72 times
Been thanked: 398 times

Jet-A vs Diesel fuel for Austro engines

Post by CFIDave » Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:34 pm

Sandy wrote:Out of curiosity... Is there a difference between Jet-A and the automotive diesel fuel that I use in my Diesel Cayenne? Can either be used in the Austro engines?
To run Austro engines on diesel instead of JetA may require different ECU software.

See Austro service bulletin MSB-E4-003/22. It shows software version 21 as the standard (latest valid) version for all Austro engines. However it also shows optional valid version 18_D for E4-A, E4-B, and E-4C (i.e., AE300) engines to run on diesel fuel, without a corresponding optional version for the E4P-C engine (AE330) of the DA62.
N62DV DA62 62.056
N42DA DA42-VI 42.N117 (sold)
N811ET DA40 XLS 40.874 (sold)
KJYO Leesburg, Virginia
User avatar
neema
3 Diamonds Member
3 Diamonds Member
FIRST NAME: Neema
Aircraft: DA42-VI
Registration: N112NG
Airport: KFAT

Posts: 100
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:43 am
Has thanked: 9 times
Been thanked: 11 times

Jet-A vs Diesel fuel for Austro engines

Post by neema » Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:06 am

I had a walk down this path since we purchase red diesel for ag equipment. I remember purchases in the high $1.90/gallon range a couple years ago when crude hit $45/bbl.

I don't think my answer is definitive, but the short story from my digging showed that yes, diesel is permitted in E4A/B/C, but only on planes flying using their EASA type certificate. The FAA type certificate does not call out for permitting diesel consumption.

It requires a placard inside the plane that limits flight above minimum temperatures based on which seasonal grade of diesel you're running (winter blend vs summer blends).
User avatar
Colin
5 Diamonds Member
5 Diamonds Member
FIRST NAME: Colin
Aircraft: DA42
Registration: N972RD
Airport: KSMO

Posts: 1314
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2010 8:37 pm
Has thanked: 129 times
Been thanked: 184 times

Jet-A vs Diesel fuel for Austro engines

Post by Colin » Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:05 am

I have a placard saying for "unknown diesel fuel" I am meant to stay within certain temperatures for starting and flying. (The limits are not near temperatures I would go flying in, so I'm safe.) Is it just placarded for EASA compliance? In English?
Colin Summers, PP Multi-Engine IFR, ~2,300hrs
colin@mightycheese.com
http://www.flyingsummers.com
N972RD DA42 G1000 2.0 s/n 42.AC100
N971RD DA40 G1000 s/n 40.508 (traded)
User avatar
neema
3 Diamonds Member
3 Diamonds Member
FIRST NAME: Neema
Aircraft: DA42-VI
Registration: N112NG
Airport: KFAT

Posts: 100
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:43 am
Has thanked: 9 times
Been thanked: 11 times

Jet-A vs Diesel fuel for Austro engines

Post by neema » Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:58 am

Interesting to hear yours has the placard on it, Colin. It's an OSB, so someone deliberately put it there, whether the factory or prior owner.


I only have 50% faith in my prior comment. A little more digging shows the EASA type certificate rife with inconsistencies, notably not calling out acceptable use of diesel on Austros in the TCDS under the fuel section (like they did with Thielerts. Couple that with Diamond's OSBs for both Austro and non-Austro diesel consumption, and I'm left thoroughly confused.

EASA TCDS: https://www.easa.europa.eu/sites/defaul ... 062013.pdf


From a cowboy perspective, at least you know the engines will run fine with marginally diminished performance (see section 5) using diesel but you must respect temperature limitations and NOT use the aux tanks (fuel wont stay heated).
User avatar
Colin
5 Diamonds Member
5 Diamonds Member
FIRST NAME: Colin
Aircraft: DA42
Registration: N972RD
Airport: KSMO

Posts: 1314
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2010 8:37 pm
Has thanked: 129 times
Been thanked: 184 times

Jet-A vs Diesel fuel for Austro engines

Post by Colin » Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:13 am

I wonder if you added your own Prist if you would be better off. And maybe you could use the aux tanks.
Colin Summers, PP Multi-Engine IFR, ~2,300hrs
colin@mightycheese.com
http://www.flyingsummers.com
N972RD DA42 G1000 2.0 s/n 42.AC100
N971RD DA40 G1000 s/n 40.508 (traded)
User avatar
Pehu
2 Diamonds Member
2 Diamonds Member
FIRST NAME: Pekka
Aircraft: DA40NG
Registration: OHASM
Airport: EFHF

Posts: 37
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2016 7:47 pm
Has thanked: 8 times
Been thanked: 3 times

Jet-A vs Diesel fuel for Austro engines

Post by Pehu » Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:25 am

neema wrote:I had a walk down this path since we purchase red diesel for ag equipment. I remember purchases in the high $1.90/gallon range a couple years ago when crude hit $45/bbl.
Not sure I'd use red diesel on aircraft engines. See here:
https://www.pitchcare.com/news-media/gi ... ately.html

and here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_dyes

At least here in Europe, the quality of that can be something else than the automotive diesel. The data you can find on the internet points to that, but not sure how it is in each country. There is also the question what the dye does to the engine?

I have been using automotive diesel and Austro Engine's technical director said during the factory visit that it is totally fine to us (for DA40NG). He said many of the german pilots use mostly automotive diesel in their DA40NGs. No software changes needed etc, at least on newer engines. Older ones might need the software or new filters etc (?).
User avatar
neema
3 Diamonds Member
3 Diamonds Member
FIRST NAME: Neema
Aircraft: DA42-VI
Registration: N112NG
Airport: KFAT

Posts: 100
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:43 am
Has thanked: 9 times
Been thanked: 11 times

Jet-A vs Diesel fuel for Austro engines

Post by neema » Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:48 pm

Good point, Pekka. I'll do a little more research.

How does the fuel return system work on your 40NG? Is there a return to only one tank or can it return heated fuel to both tanks?

Sorry for thread drift...
User avatar
Pehu
2 Diamonds Member
2 Diamonds Member
FIRST NAME: Pekka
Aircraft: DA40NG
Registration: OHASM
Airport: EFHF

Posts: 37
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2016 7:47 pm
Has thanked: 8 times
Been thanked: 3 times

Jet-A vs Diesel fuel for Austro engines

Post by Pehu » Fri Nov 02, 2018 3:42 am

neema wrote:Good point, Pekka. I'll do a little more research.

How does the fuel return system work on your 40NG? Is there a return to only one tank or can it return heated fuel to both tanks?

Sorry for thread drift...
The fuel return line goes through aux tank (right wing) and empties to the man tank (left wing). So the returned fuel warms both fuel tanks - but it returns only to the main tank. When flying on a bit colder day, you actually see the fuel temps differ a bit, main tank being few degrees warmer due to the return fuel being emptied there.

See picture from AFM
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vm8r96m6l0ryt ... g-fuel.png

And yeah, admin could split this thread as it derailed a bit from the original ... :oops:

Pekka
Post Reply