Please advise on a da62 purchase.

Any DA62 related topics

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Paul
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Re: Please advise on a da62 purchase.

Post by Paul » Sun Aug 12, 2018 2:42 pm

ultraturtle wrote:
Paul wrote:...The DA62 will cover this but as others have pointed out, it's not pressurized and can't fly high enough. The only way to cross the Rockies in IMC conditions is to fly over it and for that you need to be able to fly in the flight levels...
I disagree. The DA62 has plenty of climb performance to spare at its max altitude of FL200, although you'll typically go at FL180 or 17,000 to avoid wearing a mask. Highest Min Sector Altitude I'm aware of over the Rockies is 16,800'.
I did not make my point well. While I agree the DA62 climbs well up to its max altitude, my point was you can't go through weather over the Rockies, even in a FIKI plane. You'll spend hours in icing conditions or worse if you try and no plane is designed for that. Instead you need to go over it and for that you need something that will fly at least FL230. That's not the DA62. So it's going to be somewhat weather limited going from SLC to MO. Based on my Cirrus experience, about 85% of the time, it's fine. Coming from SLC you can take I-80 which is V6 and the MEA is briefly 12,000 feet and 10,000 feet the rest of the way.

The twin vs. single debate is endless and unwinable. Personally I'd rather have a single PT6 at FL280 over the Rockies than two piston engines at a lower altitude but that's just me. It's impossible to use data to demonstrate a King Air is safer than a PC12 when it comes to engine failure. However circumstances are unique to the pilot so I can understand why someone would take one side of the argument or the other.
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Re: Please advise on a da62 purchase.

Post by Lou » Sun Aug 12, 2018 5:19 pm

TimS wrote:
Do not make it more complicated than it is. In reality, a SETP is easier than most twins (the DA62 might be an exception).

There are really only two issues with SETP.
1. Learning to slow the plane, and to stay ahead of the plane. You either get it or you do not, and it is more of an issue when things go to sh**. But this is the smaller of the two issues, and comes more into to play if the second issue is not addressed. Note: the more complex the plane, the bigger the problem speed can be. For example, an Aerostar or a C421 are about as capable as a Meridian or older TBM. However, the Aerostar and C421 are much more complicated, and generally fly at faster approach speeds, reducing response time while increasing complexity.
2. ADM is the biggest issue. Safety comes from knowing the intersection of understanding weather, understanding the plane capabilities, and your own. Generally when you venture beyond any one axis you learn, the problem is when you venture beyond more than one axis.
Tim
Tim, I think you are right especially about learning to slow the plane, but that takes more training and experience than we give it credit for when distractions and inexperience are factored in. This accident report below makes for sobering reading for a bunch of reasons, not least of which is how quickly an instrument problem in a SETP in the flight levels ended in tragedy.

http://tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/a ... 8w0068.asp

High time commercial pilots have proper process baked into their instinctive reactions. When the problem happens they react at a subconscious level. It is much more difficult for private pilots to achieve that level of competence, no matter how much they study. But in high stress situations, conscious thinking becomes difficult and sub-conscious reaction is all you got.

I guess my point is that private pilots like myself can get excited by possibilities: for me it was “I can visit my kids anytime”. That excitement has twice put me into mountain weather that was less than ideal. Those experiences in turn have caused me to hit the reset button. I tell myself consciously to go slow, learn as much as I can, and beware the fatal illness of “get there-itis”.

The same process has led me to be more satisfied with my DA-40, because I accept that its limitations are less than my limitations. So to the new pilot who aspires to travel, I say great, but worry first about your own skills, and then about the aircraft.
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Re: Please advise on a da62 purchase.

Post by Antoine » Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:19 pm

A bit of a thread drift... my instructor on the Extra400 transition training (he really was my first mentor) just died in a horrifying twin engine accident.
It was a brand new Beach Baron.
He was conducting a flight review with the owner and they were doing a one-engine-inop go around.
The plane flipped over (yikes!) probably due to speed below Vmc and they fell off the sky inverted form 10 meters. Nasty...
I don't know the Rockies but I fly over the Alps both VFR and IFR
Up there, for long and mission critical trips I'd go for a well proven FIKI SET and keep everything as simple as possible.
TBM gets my vote, despite the maintenance costs. An M600 would also fit the bill I think, but you won't find too many used.
Be aware of one major restriction. These airplanes are boring IFR workhorses that handle accordingly.
They will take you from A to B on autopilot... period.
Which is another reason for buying a smaller and more nimble plane as an intermediate step. Have fun and get your stick and rudder skills to their peak.
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Re: Please advise on a da62 purchase.

Post by Colin » Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:53 pm

https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.avia ... 166&akey=1

That accident comes to mind when people are talking about twins being safer. It also stayed with me because West Coast Charter was the place that did all the maintenance on our DA40 until Angel City took over their piston work. So when the accident report talks about "walking next door to maintenance" they would have talked to Mike Herbert, who I then talked to the next week about the accident.

A commercial pilot with over two thousand hours. Exactly the scenario they train for over and over and over (loss of engine on take off). A runway two miles long. Really, you couldn't ask for a more benign set up and he failed the test. It did not make me feel good about "real life" twins.

(I would argue that the DA42, which is the only twin I have flown) is not really a twin in the traditional sense. My instructor was able to yank and engine and in the beginning, when I was struggling to keep up with the plane, nothing untoward happened when I was slooooowly figuring out which engine to feather, which rudder to stomp on, how to get that rudder trim in there. The engines are close to the centerline and not hugely powered (maybe even under-powered, a single-engine go around is not allowed). Some Baron pilots have admitted if you don't do the right thing in thirty seconds you will be upside down.)
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Re: Please advise on a da62 purchase.

Post by Paul » Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:18 am

Antoine wrote: Be aware of one major restriction. These airplanes are boring IFR workhorses that handle accordingly.
They will take you from A to B on autopilot... period.
Which is another reason for buying a smaller and more nimble plane as an intermediate step. Have fun and get your stick and rudder skills to their peak.
This is only partially true. I have an early morning flight from Pocatello, ID back to Ogden, UT tomorrow. It's a little over 100nm, which is about 30 minutes in the M600. I'll hand fly that trip VFR at the lowest altitude I find smooth air and probably won't even put a flight plane in the G3000. Down low turboprops are still pretty efficient and fun to fly. However your point is valid because 95% of my trips are IFR, climb straight to FL260-FL280, set the autopilot and and start the movie.

I'm kidding about the movie..
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Re: Please advise on a da62 purchase.

Post by Lou » Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:31 am

“The engines are close to the centerline and not hugely powered ”

And I would add appear to have a fair degree of outward thrust. I played with twins in RC planes and outward thrust and close to the centre line works really well for single engine performance. I say “appear” because I am judging from plan view drawings I have looked at that there is 2 or 3 degrees at least on each engine. I don’t know for a fact.
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Re: Please advise on a da62 purchase.

Post by TimS » Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:02 am

Antoine wrote:A bit of a thread drift... my instructor on the Extra400 transition training (he really was my first mentor) just died in a horrifying twin engine accident.
It was a brand new Beach Baron.
He was conducting a flight review with the owner and they were doing a one-engine-inop go around.
The plane flipped over (yikes!) probably due to speed below Vmc and they fell off the sky inverted form 10 meters. Nasty...
I believe there are very few hard/fast rules in aviation. But this is one of them:
Once the "field" is made with an engine shutdown, never go around. Always land, even if no gear, if a plane on the runway, crash on the grass next to the runway.... Never, ever go around once you are past short final and going below blue line.
There is no reason to actually shutdown the engine in anything but cruise. The POH always has zero thrust settings, and if it does not you can always shutdown an engine in cruise determine some performance numbers way above blue line then figure out zero thrust settings.
Below blue line, the plane effectively has one engine. Lose either and you shutdown both and go down.

Tim
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Re: Please advise on a da62 purchase.

Post by Lance Murray » Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:34 am

In regards to the King Air accident and part 91 owner flown aircraft. The dirty secret in recurrent flight training at places like Flight Safety is that EVERYONE leaves there with training that satisfies the insurance company and the FAA. If you write a check you leave with your annual training certificate.

I personally watched a pilot that was 500 Times more experienced than I but beyond his prime and advanced in his years crash a simulator over and over. There was no check ride and no bust.

The aircraft owner watched it and continued to fly with him. The director of training of the training center watched it and just verbally advised him to fly VFR. He left with his annual training certificate required by the insurance and he was on his way. I asked the owner to not put his family in the airplane but I was ignored.

So.... just something to think about.
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Re: Please advise on a da62 purchase.

Post by ultraturtle » Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:52 pm

Paul wrote:...While I agree the DA62 climbs well up to its max altitude, my point was you can't go through weather over the Rockies, even in a FIKI plane. You'll spend hours in icing conditions or worse if you try and no plane is designed for that. Instead you need to go over it and for that you need something that will fly at least FL230. That's not the DA62.
Again, I humbly disagree. While the DA62 may not be able to climb quite as high as the DA42 (nearly identical engine hardware, different software), it can surely achieve near RVSM levels (<FL290, although you are limited to FL250 unpressurized) at a respectable climb rate (500 fpm+), even through icing (with deice pumps on). I've reluctantly donned the mask and climbed into the mid 20's several times to hop a saddle of bad juju.

Certified ceiling is just a number. I get it that diesels need both heat and compression to operate, much less restart, and as both dwindle with increasing altitude, I understand why Diamond has somewhat artificially limited the max altitude of both the DA42 NG and DA62. No guaranteed restart of either engine on a twin in the 20's puts one in pretty much the same situation as a single engine failure of a single in the same altitude range, the only difference being the astronomical probability of loosing both.
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Re: Please advise on a da62 purchase.

Post by Chris » Thu Aug 16, 2018 11:50 pm

ultraturtle wrote:Certified ceiling is just a number.
"Certified service ceiling" is a number based on the performance of the aircraft, and there's nothing in the (FAA) regs that prevents you from exceeding that.

On the other hand, "Maximum Operating Altitude" is a completely separate thing which is listed in the Aircraft Limitations section of the POH, and is listed as 20,000ft pressure altitude in section 2.11 of the DA62 POH. To the best of my knowledge, it has has the same level of authority as CG limits, MTOW, max passengers, and anything else listed in section 2. This has been discussed quite a bit in various threads online such as this one.
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