Weather Radar or Satellite link?
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- wolfvoador
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Weather Radar or Satellite link?
On a recent flight through the intertropical convergence zone over the Amazon, we got thrown around quite a bit for the pure lack of information on "clouds behind the clouds". The Stormscope kept us out of really bad convective activity, but it was bad enough to consider more info on my next flight. At the beginning of the flight, I still used the precip images downloaded before takeoff, but as we progressed, they became useless. In the US, you have Sirius XM, but 3-400 nm offshore the guessing starts (I am Bahamas based)... Two basic solutions (tell me if you see more)
(1) install a weather radar, I have seen those in the nose compartment of DA42 (Robert's OEFAR), takes away half of that space, , weighs a lot, and costs 30-40k (see 2011 post viewtopic.php?t=5751)
(2) A satellite linked solution: Iridium propose their GO product, coupled with specific providers such as OCENS GRIB, does anyone have experience with this product? Does it have sufficient granularity for weather navigation? Download speed? Are their other solutions? Thuraya and GlobalStar have faster speeds, but their coverages are not global.
Any thoughts in this forum (btw, I suggest creation of an "Avionics" Forum, as this and similar matters are of interest to DA40, DA62 and others, or should I post it somewhere else?)
(1) install a weather radar, I have seen those in the nose compartment of DA42 (Robert's OEFAR), takes away half of that space, , weighs a lot, and costs 30-40k (see 2011 post viewtopic.php?t=5751)
(2) A satellite linked solution: Iridium propose their GO product, coupled with specific providers such as OCENS GRIB, does anyone have experience with this product? Does it have sufficient granularity for weather navigation? Download speed? Are their other solutions? Thuraya and GlobalStar have faster speeds, but their coverages are not global.
Any thoughts in this forum (btw, I suggest creation of an "Avionics" Forum, as this and similar matters are of interest to DA40, DA62 and others, or should I post it somewhere else?)
- CFIDave
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Re: Weather Radar or Satellite link?
What you really need for flying where you're trying to pick your way through thunderstorms or convective clouds is something that gives you *real-time* weather information; not a source subject to 10-15 minutes time delays like Nexrad images from SXM or ADS-B weather (which of course aren't available outside North America).
By far, the best real-time source is weather radar in the nose that displays on the G1000. As you noted, the big issue is cost, but you don't lose ANY space in the DA42/DA62 nose baggage compartments (the 10" dish fits entirely in front of the nose bulkhead), and a Garmin GWX 70 digital unit only weighs about 10 lbs. A storm scope is also real-time but IMHO is too limited in what it can display (lightning/static discharges).
For non-realtime weather info that's useful for longer-range "strategic" planning, the Garmin GSR56 Iridium unit for G1000 provides satellite weather coverage outside of North America, but I'm not sure about places like Brazil. The GSR56 is basically a dial-up voice grade modem, so bandwidth is quite limited, it runs about $20K, and there are per-minute connection charges. You can also use it to make phone calls and send text messages in flight. But I wouldn't invest in a GSR56 because it will very soon be obsolete.
Why? We're right on the cusp of a new generation of low-earth orbit satellite constellations that should deliver Mbps Internet bandwidth with low latency anywhere on earth. Services from these satellites (e.g., Iridium next generation, SpaceX's constellation, etc.) will soon (2-3 years out?) be able to give you full Internet connectivity at much less expense than today's in-flight Internet services targeted at wealthy BizJet owners.
By far, the best real-time source is weather radar in the nose that displays on the G1000. As you noted, the big issue is cost, but you don't lose ANY space in the DA42/DA62 nose baggage compartments (the 10" dish fits entirely in front of the nose bulkhead), and a Garmin GWX 70 digital unit only weighs about 10 lbs. A storm scope is also real-time but IMHO is too limited in what it can display (lightning/static discharges).
For non-realtime weather info that's useful for longer-range "strategic" planning, the Garmin GSR56 Iridium unit for G1000 provides satellite weather coverage outside of North America, but I'm not sure about places like Brazil. The GSR56 is basically a dial-up voice grade modem, so bandwidth is quite limited, it runs about $20K, and there are per-minute connection charges. You can also use it to make phone calls and send text messages in flight. But I wouldn't invest in a GSR56 because it will very soon be obsolete.
Why? We're right on the cusp of a new generation of low-earth orbit satellite constellations that should deliver Mbps Internet bandwidth with low latency anywhere on earth. Services from these satellites (e.g., Iridium next generation, SpaceX's constellation, etc.) will soon (2-3 years out?) be able to give you full Internet connectivity at much less expense than today's in-flight Internet services targeted at wealthy BizJet owners.
Epic Aircraft E1000 GX
Former DA40XLS, DA42-VI, and DA62 owner
ATP, CFI, CFI-I, MEI
Former DA40XLS, DA42-VI, and DA62 owner
ATP, CFI, CFI-I, MEI
- robert63
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Re: Weather Radar or Satellite link?
Useful radar imagery is available in Europe, Canada and US only, so satellite communication will not help much in such remote areas you are frequently traveling. We use https://www.ing-golze.de additionally to on board weather radar. Everything together including Stormscope provides a good picture, because each source of information has its limitations. Satellite pictures are delayed, on board radar cannot see weather behind and Stormscope may not see precipitation without electric activity.
- ultraturtle
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Re: Weather Radar or Satellite link?
Data linked radar picture (NexRad [via XM Weather/ADSB], it's current or future Iridium equivalent) = Strategic
Onboard Weather Radar = Tactical
The weather picture that displays as 5 minutes old on your XM Weather display could be as much as 15 to 20 minutes older than that.
See https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all ... ther-watch.
It is useful for long range planning, but far less useful in fast moving and fast building convective systems.
Having used quite a few onboard radar systems over the course of tens of thousands of hours, my opinion is that the Garmin GWX70 is a fantastic system, and a really good value. I would not have flown several trips this past summer in the Southeastern US without it. And I do have an XM Weather subscription. I understand the value of strategic + tactical planning.
Onboard Weather Radar = Tactical
The weather picture that displays as 5 minutes old on your XM Weather display could be as much as 15 to 20 minutes older than that.
See https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all ... ther-watch.
It is useful for long range planning, but far less useful in fast moving and fast building convective systems.
Having used quite a few onboard radar systems over the course of tens of thousands of hours, my opinion is that the Garmin GWX70 is a fantastic system, and a really good value. I would not have flown several trips this past summer in the Southeastern US without it. And I do have an XM Weather subscription. I understand the value of strategic + tactical planning.
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Re: Weather Radar or Satellite link?
I've flown a number of trips through the ICZ in B767ERs - I believe radar is a "must have" for those ops, along with knowing how to use your radar "tilt"! Look for those radar shadows and AVOID anywhere near them! As far as "stormscopes" go, there is plenty of weather down there that has modeate to severe turbulence in it, even though nothing "appears" on a stormscope!
If I have the option, I will even navigate around "green" radar returns (supposedly lighter precip) when flying in the intertropical convergence zone. Yellow and red returns are bad anywhere in the world, but are incredibly NASTY in the ICZ!
If I have the option, I will even navigate around "green" radar returns (supposedly lighter precip) when flying in the intertropical convergence zone. Yellow and red returns are bad anywhere in the world, but are incredibly NASTY in the ICZ!
Looking!
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- robert63
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Re: Weather Radar or Satellite link?
It‘s the oxygen that takes away half of the space.wolfvoador wrote: in the nose compartment of DA42 (Robert's OEFAR), takes away half of that space, , weighs a lot, and costs 30-40k (see 2011 post viewtopic.php?t=5751)
(2) A
- wolfvoador
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Re: Weather Radar or Satellite link?
ok, thanks Robert, I thought that was also the radar, but I get it that space is not the issue (only the cost....). I still have to believe that satellite transmission technology will advance quickly, and less costly solutions should become available. Leaving still a dilemma for a trip later this year... I agree with previous posts that a satcom based system such as XM is not reliable for micromanagment of a flight path in immediate vicinity of heavy weather (my worst in-flight experience was a couple of years back flying IFR-controlled and vectored approaching KFXE into a quickly building TS cloud, where XM showed an open space between clouds), but I would trust it for making a wider circle around a "suspect area".
- robert63
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Re: Weather Radar or Satellite link?
The coverage of high resolution precipitation images is limited to US, Canada and Western Europe. And even there you get no information on the altitude of the precipitation. I think there is no real alternative to on board weather radar and nothing in sight. You'll need to invest the 30k.
- hap
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Re: Weather Radar or Satellite link?
Hi Wolf
I feel your Pain. I took a quick look at the Iridium Go Product and looked at radar images at the same time. Found little resemblance and long download times so cancelled my rental order. I have found a good correlation Between the Garmin Pilot internet based Sat pictures and the actual weather when looking on it from the ground. 10 min delays to report 15 min delayed pics but not bad to stay out of trouble by letting you know developing conditions. Looking into ways to get Garmins info on my Ipad. My older G1000 will not support the GSR 56.
Have pics ind info if you want to get together in NAS sometime.
Best Hap Perry N471HP.
I feel your Pain. I took a quick look at the Iridium Go Product and looked at radar images at the same time. Found little resemblance and long download times so cancelled my rental order. I have found a good correlation Between the Garmin Pilot internet based Sat pictures and the actual weather when looking on it from the ground. 10 min delays to report 15 min delayed pics but not bad to stay out of trouble by letting you know developing conditions. Looking into ways to get Garmins info on my Ipad. My older G1000 will not support the GSR 56.
Have pics ind info if you want to get together in NAS sometime.
Best Hap Perry N471HP.
- rdrobson
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Re: Weather Radar or Satellite link?
John, does the equipment you fly have turbulence detection like you can get on some of the GWX 70's? I've heard two PIREPS on that, one was a 'meh' and the other swore by it. It would be interesting to see how it would react to those green areas that are rough.
--Ron