DA62 real performance and resale

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Iron Ball

DA62 real performance and resale

Post by Iron Ball »

Hi all. I am evaluating a demo 2016 DA62 for purchase (in Australia). The DA62 is clearly a gorgeous, comfortable, safe, modern, well-appointed plane, However, two main questions for DA62 owners:

Firstly, having trawled all over your great forum I find very little information from actual DA62 drivers on real-life performance and reliability details. In particular, the move I am contemplating is from a beautiful Bonanza F33A, in which I normally cruise comfortably at 165-170 Kt at 8000'-10,000', burning 55L/hr. To justify this expensive upgrade, I would have to be confident that I can cruise, all day long, in the vicinity of 190-200. Some writers elsewhere claim that there is a "sweet spot" for the DA62 at around 170-175, which definitely doesn't do it for me. Is it realistic to expect that the DA62 can be flown more or less all the time at max cruise - around 190 Kt - without asking too much of the engines?

Secondly, in deciding on what to offer for this plane (with around 200 hours on the clock), we are trying to get a feel for resale. With so few out there (still), the market obviously is not at all mature. Have there been many resold, and how is the price holding up? Are there any known factors likely to influence pricing - for example, changes expected from the new owners?

Oh, and one more: how much difference does the NXi make?

Many thanks in anticipation.

Brian Hall
(near Byron Bay, Australia)
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Re: DA62 real performance and resale

Post by jb642DA »

Hi Brian -

Back in the 90's I flew an F33A. Here in Michigan, US, without having "known icing" capability, I didn't fly the plane much from November-April due to the restriction of flying IFR on "forecast" icing days. I'm sure you will see "mission" improvements due to the DA62 FIKI capability. (I'm guessing that the DA62 cabin is about 16" wider than the F33 also?) Based on your F33A experience, maybe you should consider something like a 2015-16 G5 Cirrus SR22, if you don't want/need the multi-engine capability or extra load capability - (ie: what's your mission)??

In case you don't have any manuals - here is the link to them -
https://www.diamondaircraft.com/technical-publications/
Here is the DA62 AFM - http://support.diamond-air.at/da62_afm_ ... 73ab0.html
As far as flying at max cruise "all day long", you can find that data in the AFM.

Currently, I'm flying a DA42TDI - The numbers I see flying the DA42TDI are very close to what's in the AFM.

Look up the numbers you are interested in and then, when demo'ing the 2016 DA62, see if performance matches what the book says (I'm guessing it will be very close).

While there may be some speed difference between the Baron/Seneca/DA62, or whatever your other possible choices may be, look at your "typical mission" and run the numbers to see what the time and fuel burn/cost differences are between the different planes you are considering. I like the fact that the fuel burn for a certain speed doesn't change much from 4-12,000 feet. I'd prefer to fly lower versus being on O2 to save $$ on fuel burn (of course depending on the winds aloft also).

Also, for my planned DA62 "80% typical mission flights", (400NM and 800-900# load), cruising at 190 versus 175KTAS is less that 10 minutes difference in flight time. (I couldn't even do this "mission" in an F33A or the DA42!)

After flying a couple of demo flights in the 62 last summer and comparing the DA62 to the Baron and Seneca, we chose to order a 2018 DA62. Should arrive here in July.

The NXi upgrade is nice. It does all the things the "older" G1000 does, only faster, like rendering new pages and screen "zoom ins and outs", overlaying XM weather and real time onboard radar.

Hope this helps.

Maybe CFIDave can give you real world cruise info since he's had his 62 for "awhile"!!
Last edited by jb642DA on Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: DA62 real performance and resale

Post by CFIDave »

To try and answer your questions (I personally own a DA62 and sell them):

1. Even when setting the power to 95% on the engines (maximum continuous power), you won't be able to cruise at 190+ knots TAS unless you're up high, generally at altitudes where you will require the use of oxygen. The rule of thumb is that you'll fly 3 knots TAS higher for each 2000 feet of additional altitude (up to about 15,000 feet on a DA62) with turbocharged Austro engines.

I suggest you take a look at the DA62 performance tables in the AFM/POH:
http://support.diamond-air.at/da62_afm_ ... 73ab0.html
These tables are quite accurate; you might gain a few knots by flying at less than maximum gross weight.

2. There's no resale market right now, because there usually aren't any used DA62s for sale (at least in North America) -- the plane is still too new for the original owners to want to sell. And getting a new one requires about an 8-10 month wait (unless a distributor was willing to pre-order for their inventory, which we've done), despite both Canada and Austria factories building DA62s as fast as they can. So a potential buyer who needs a DA62 right away might be willing to pay close to new pricing for a used one, if one were available.

I wouldn't expect many changes to the DA62 due to full Chinese ownership of Diamond; the plane was already upgraded to G1000 NXi last year. Diamond's development efforts seem to be focused on the upcoming DA50.

3. The NXi brings mostly much brighter, faster-responding screens to the G1000. On the DA62 and DA42-VI it also brought a new full-page ENGINE page and (for the first time on Diamond twins) fuel gauges for the aux tanks. Many NXi features available on other planes (e.g., wireless FlightStream 510 card support, visual approaches, etc.) have not yet been included on the DA62, but this is rumored to change with a new G1000 NXi software release available in July.
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Re: DA62 real performance and resale

Post by ironball »

Thanks for your responses John & Dave. Not a garrulous lot, these DA62 owners, eh?

I have indeed pored over the manuals online and understood that altitude is necessary to achieve the max cruise performance I'm after. The focus of my question is really about the long-term effect on the engines of operating at max cruise more or less all the time. Dave, if you have any thoughts on that, I would love to hear them. As you both point out, there are many benefits that add up to help justify an upgrade to the DA62; unfortunately, speed is not really one of them, or at least not in my mind. But I certainly would want to see SOME speed improvement over the Bonanza for the price, hence the interest in being able to sustain 190 KTAS or so.

On resale, I guess it's early days still. I have no interest in older designs like Baron or Seneca - that seems like a backward step in some ways. However, resale is predictable. And although it does seem that the demand for DA62s is outpacing supply at the moment, in spite of the price tag, I'm surprised that there is so little glowing praise for them from owners. Am I missing something? I also wonder about two (in my mind) shortcomings: underwhelming speed and lack of pressurization, and whether the new owners of Diamond might be tempted to address those in the near future...

By the sound of things, NXI involves more than just a software upgrade, so it may not be an inexpensive upgrade to the 2016 model?

Thanks again for your input.

Brian
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Re: DA62 real performance and resale

Post by jb642DA »

Hi Brian -

The 2016 bird with the "older" G1000 is certainly capable! I think somewhere on this board or perhaps BeechTalk, the "upgrade" cost to NXi was estimated at $80,000USD!? Certainly not inexpensive and, in my opinion, not needed to get full utilization out of the 2016 DA62.

Please post what you end up buying! Thanks - John
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Re: DA62 real performance and resale

Post by Colin »

I admit that I feel badly bragging about my DA42 sometimes. It is a huge luxury and I feel like a smug jerk. It is an amazing machine. I just flew SMO – OAK – HIO, HIO – BLI – FHR – BFI – FHR, FHR – MFR – SMO. All just amazing flights in a nearly perfect machine.

OAK – HIO there was a Bonanza that was probably 4kts faster. I was 76% and burning 10.8gph total and I almost had the controller ask him what his fuel burn was.
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Re: DA62 real performance and resale

Post by CFIDave »

ironball wrote:The focus of my question is really about the long-term effect on the engines of operating at max cruise more or less all the time. Dave, if you have any thoughts on that, I would love to hear them.
I know of multiple owners who always operate their Diamonds with Austro engines at MCP (maximum continuous power) at cruise, with no ill effects on engine health or longevity. So if you choose to operate routinely at MCP, you could that that.

I generally don't operate at MCP, because the additional fuel burned when cruising at 95% power vs. 75% power (i.e., 18 gph vs. 14.5 gph) in my DA62 is not usually worth saving 10 minutes on a 500 mile flight. The amount I spend on JetA isn't insignificant, and the extra 12 or more knots of airspeed results in fewer miles/gallon fuel economy. Required engine power (and hence rate of fuel burn) increases with the cube of velocity.
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Re: DA62 real performance and resale

Post by dselder1962 »

Brian
I think I may have taken a test flight in this plane, with Fernando and Joe at hawker pacific in Sydney. What a beautiful plane indeed. Just too much plane for me, so I went to a new 42-VI (from a Cirrus 22T.) In fact if you look hard at my avatar, you will see it is that 62 over western Sydney!

We did engine failures and stalls and just had a great time. One thing about the engine failures was I then read that the in flight stoppages could cause some timing chain issues which I think they had to get fixed.
So if it is this plane you might want to check that out (I am sure you are having a pre-buy done by someone who knows them inside out, though there don't seem to be many LAMEs with a lot of experience with these birds/engines.)

Anyway, can't say enough good things about how Hawker Pacific handled my sale of the 22t and the handover, post sale care, etc.

If it is, give my best to Fernando!

Good luck!
David
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Re: DA62 real performance and resale

Post by Iron Ball »

CFIDave wrote:
ironball wrote:The focus of my question is really about the long-term effect on the engines of operating at max cruise more or less all the time. Dave, if you have any thoughts on that, I would love to hear them.
I know of multiple owners who always operate their Diamonds with Austro engines at MCP (maximum continuous power) at cruise, with no ill effects on engine health or longevity. So if you choose to operate routinely at MCP, you could that that.

I generally don't operate at MCP, because the additional fuel burned when cruising at 95% power vs. 75% power (i.e., 18 gph vs. 14.5 gph) in my DA62 is not usually worth saving 10 minutes on a 500 mile flight. The amount I spend on JetA isn't insignificant, and the extra 12 or more knots of airspeed results in fewer miles/gallon fuel economy. Required engine power (and hence rate of fuel burn) increases with the cube of velocity.
Thanks Dave. I know there are no free lunches and in real life I may not be so impatient, but I would like to know it's there....
Iron Ball

Re: DA62 real performance and resale

Post by Iron Ball »

dselder1962 wrote:Brian
I think I may have taken a test flight in this plane, with Fernando and Joe at hawker pacific in Sydney. What a beautiful plane indeed. Just too much plane for me, so I went to a new 42-VI (from a Cirrus 22T.) In fact if you look hard at my avatar, you will see it is that 62 over western Sydney!

We did engine failures and stalls and just had a great time. One thing about the engine failures was I then read that the in flight stoppages could cause some timing chain issues which I think they had to get fixed.
So if it is this plane you might want to check that out (I am sure you are having a pre-buy done by someone who knows them inside out, though there don't seem to be many LAMEs with a lot of experience with these birds/engines.)

Anyway, can't say enough good things about how Hawker Pacific handled my sale of the 22t and the handover, post sale care, etc.

If it is, give my best to Fernando!

Good luck!
David
Hi David:
It is indeed the same plane and it is indeed a very beautiful unit; just expensive (which obviously is why it's still there). Thanks for the feedback on Hawker and Fernando (and the timing chains). They have been very helpful & responsive so far, but I guess that's always the case before the sale.
May I ask what was the main driver for you to move from the 22t to the DA42-VI or DA62?
Brian
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