Training market: Diamond or Cirrus?

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Gearle
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Re: Training market: Diamond or Cirrus?

Postby Gearle » Thu Aug 03, 2017 2:13 pm

H60 pilot wrote:I might disagree with a couple of your points:

1) The DA40 is not spin certified, or so my AFM states in chapter 2.9, operating limitations.
3) The 40 might have been the G1000 release platform, but what I've experienced first hand and subsequently read on this forum suggests the package has been little improved since Diamond's adoption.

But I too find an aircraft's propensity to fly, while hemorrhaging airspeed no less, a fine aerodynamic quality.

And I too hope Diamond Canada's new management has the vision enough to release a DA40 version 2.0.


Hello,

To be particular needs be, a few were, in general the DA 40 has been spin tested, and the DA20 was spin certified (http://www.diamondaircraft.com/aircraft/da20/). "In fact, there is a model of the DA 40 that is approved for intentional spinning. That is the DA 40 F model (with carb IO-360). The approval requires a jettisonable canopy as well. As I recall it there were only a couple of these configurations that were actually sold and both of them are in China." The Cessna 172 has not been certified either.
ref: viewtopic.php?t=4369&start=30

spin certification is generally reserved for acrobatic aircraft.

Here is the OEM video of the spin testing. the demonstration for Normal category aircraft shows the spin being entered in one turn and recovery in one term, including video text overlay for emphasis:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQXLUaA3yo4

in contrast to the Cirrus: "certification standards clearly say you need to do it in one turn. The test pilot conducted spin after spin in that condition trying to improve the technique to get the recovery down to that one turn.
Question: What happened?
CIRRUS Engineer: He made some progress. He got it down to one-and-a-half turns. Then on the 30th attempt, the spin was entered into with a greater yaw rate and it entered an unrecoverable spin. Fortunately the test pilot was wearing a parachute and he successfully bailed out. What this means is that even test pilots will find the condition that a plane will not recover from – the cliff – and sometimes it comes down to how fast the plane initially slices into the rotation with the yaw rate."
ref: http://www.kineticlearning.com/pilots_w ... 06_03.html
Ergo their parachute.
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Re: Training market: Diamond or Cirrus?

Postby Pascal » Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:52 pm

Imho the decision to pick Cirrus vs Diamond for a training fleet has little to do with the technical superiority of the airplanes.

One of my clients once picked the worst electronic equipment and software solution on the market, against all of his engineers' advice, simply because he was able to get a better deal by negotiating directly with the various equipment manufacturers. Of course, the costs of maintaining such a shitty solution were much higher than it it would have been had he chosen one of the technologically superior solutions, but Capex was highly visible to the corporation, vs Opex.

Another thing about the Cirrus is that the brand recognition is much better than Diamond, so that could help attract students and renters to that particular fleet.
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Re: Training market: Diamond or Cirrus?

Postby Gearle » Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:32 pm

Understood, in my case, I am the op ex and cap X budget director :)
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Re: Training market: Diamond or Cirrus?

Postby H60 pilot » Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:33 am

Yes, the best guess I can summon as to Diamond's lost opportunities in the training market is due to being outclassed in business practices. Still, it's hard for me to internalize why more budget minded schools don't purchase DA20s to introduce potential candidates to aviation and earn their PPL. Especially when I read that most students fail to complete training because of exceedingly high costs.

Just read the other day Piper sold over a dozen Archers to a flight school, still shaking my head, but makes more sense to me than a SR20.
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Re: Training market: Diamond or Cirrus?

Postby krellis » Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:00 am

Just FYI - some (maybe all, not sure) models of Cessna 172's are spin certified in the utility category.
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Re: Training market: Diamond or Cirrus?

Postby 1911Tex » Fri Aug 04, 2017 2:01 pm

DA20's are spin certified in utility catagory.
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Re: Training market: Diamond or Cirrus?

Postby H60 pilot » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:58 pm

Excited to see GAMA's year end report on February 23rd, really looking forward to combing the data for SEP sales. Until then, I thought this news was interesting given the recent activity in the 40NG thread.
http://www.piper.com/piper-receives-lar ... hnologies/
. . . that's 152 100LL guzzling Lycoming powered aircraft sold for an overseas training market! Also interesting about this sale were the 50 Seminoles; that's 78% of Diamond's FY16 twin engine sales in a single purchase, well played Piper!
Confused as to why Fanmei Aviation would purchase avgas burners, as opposed to the DA40NG for example, I read the PA-28 POH. Key observations: at MTOW the Piper uses 330 ft less runway to clear an obstacle and stops 733 ft shorter when returning to land compared to the NG; SL climb performance is similar at equal gross weights; stall speeds in the PA28 are a familiar 49 kias. Of course the PA28 doesn't excel everyplace, as expected the NG burns less fuel at any comparable cruise speed, but the Archer does look like a safer aircraft in the pattern for students.

Piper claims their sales were up an astonishing 23% last year, all due to the demand for training aircraft! It'll be interesting to see how the Austro powered DA40 sold on the global market by comparison.
http://www.piper.com/piper-aircraft-ann ... -for-2017/
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Re: Training market: Diamond or Cirrus?

Postby H60 pilot » Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:15 am

Cirrus - great handling qualities at the bottom of the speed envelope, and a nice soft break at stall. Total non-event :shock: The kind of aerodynamic handling qualities that protect pilots from mistakes, great flight school choice :thumbsd:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haNytbO4JgU
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Re: Training market: Diamond or Cirrus?

Postby gordsh » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:30 pm

Wow, I just watched that video on the late model G6-SR20 power on stall...I really don't remember my DA40 breaking away so abruptly at all in the power on stall. Seems like the DR20 went from last stall warning annunciation to full 1/4 rotation by the time the pilot recovered. I remember my DA40 being much much more gentle, went to buffeting, then nose drop and then slightly one wing down. Way gentler than the SR20 in the video. Good ting though is that the SR20's stall warning horn went off for a while before the plane reacted.
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