Training market: Diamond or Cirrus?

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H60 pilot

Re: Training market: Diamond or Cirrus?

Post by H60 pilot »

To piggyback on Dave's comment I'm reminded of this recent post by Paul Bertorelli titled, "Want to Sell Airplanes? Try North America First"
https://www.avweb.com/blogs/insider/Wan ... 066-1.html

I suspect Diamond drank the Asian market Kool-aid like so many others, hoping to strike gold selling entry level planes into an emerging market. It just never materialized.
I share much of your sentiment Krellis towards Mr. Dries. Although I didn't speak to him directly, when I last spoke to a Diamond employee in Friedrichshafen I was quite bewildered by their market strategy. In this regard I'm unusually optimistic that the Canadian team will have more competitive goals.
DaveM

Re: Training market: Diamond or Cirrus?

Post by DaveM »

Having flown both brands recently (~160 hrs of DA-40 , ~25 hrs DA-42-NG, ~8 hrs of a SR-20 G6, the new 215HP 150+ kt version, and 5 hrs G3 Perspective SR-22 time), my personal opinion is you will "learn more" flying the DA-40, and the DA-40 has much, much "friendlier" low speed handling characteristics which I would translate into "safer".

I think the DA-40 is really an outstanding training platform for stick and rudder work in addition to "systems" (G1000 versions). I find it lacking in the areas of range, comfort (all bubble canopy Diamonds need A/C from the factory...), and in the case of the 50 gallon planes, cg problems (again - not an issue in 40 gallon planes).

I think Cirrus *currently* builds better "mission-oriented" single engine airplanes, specifically the SR-22, because it has the speed, endurance, comfort, and FIKI component that makes doing 600nm IFR legs realistic, whereas this simply isn't the case even with 50 gallon DA-40s in my experience, and as of yet Diamond doesn't offer a single with these capabilities (come on DA-50!). The SRs are not as much fun to hand-fly, but in any kind of real cross country situation you will likely appreciate the rest of the package.

I don't like how the Cirrus hides things from me, and trying to make me feel good about how the plane is flying, only to have it show up with a completely different personality at the bottom of the envelope. I think if they got rid of the spring cartridge in the side yoke, I would be much happier in this regard. I would be happy to deal with the trade off of having to use a gust-lock!

You can see how people have gotten into trouble with them, just go do (at a safe altitude please) a power-on somewhat uncoordinated stall in one vs. a DA-40 and report back, I think you will find if you translated that into a low-altitude, high alpha/high wing loading base->final turn, with power being added, you can see how you can get yourself into "real trouble" "real quickly" in the SR... general disclaimer is of course one can kill themselves in any airplane, it just seems like the Diamond makes trying to kill yourself an almost comical tragedy by comparison to most other airframes. This is what you should want out of a "beginner" aircraft, leave the ones that grow teeth in certain flight regimes for later once you are through primary training...

I think there is also a perception of better factory support from Cirrus, I'm not an owner of either brand at the moment so I can only comment based on my interactions with actual owners of both brands, and as such it is hearsay.

If money were not an object within the $500K-$900K new airplane category for either brand, my list of ideal to own would be (best at top):

1. DA-42-VI
2. SR-22 G6
3. SR-20 G6
4. DA-40

Best training platform by a country mile: DA-40
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Re: Training market: Diamond or Cirrus?

Post by carym »

All,
I have tried to keep a civil tongue about Diamond support, but I have to add some reality to this discussion. What Diamond says and what Diamond does are two very different things. They claimed to have a world wide sales force to be able to rapidly market and sell aircraft turned over to them. They have had my plane for 15 months now for sale and haven't even started to try to sell the plane. I am looking to replace the plane, but my wife won't let me come near a Diamond because of the poor customer service we have received. I certainly wish Diamond the best, but they really have to change their customer service methods.
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Re: Training market: Diamond or Cirrus?

Post by Derek »

I imagine the airlines are training their professional tier 1 pilots to be even better. They are therefore most likely beyond an aircraft like DA40 or 20, which are both excellent trainers for newer or part time pilots. They want something more similar to an airliner just miniature. If it's got a less forgiving operating envelope, like a Cirrus or an airliner, then even better!

As a primary trainer and something for part time pilots to operate, nothing comes close to a da20 or 40 unless you're too big and you need a roomier Cessna.

For me, I absolutely love my da20. It does such a statistically superior job of keeping me alive, by a factor of 3 or 4 to one vs it's competitors. That alone keeps me loyal. Then add its speed vs a Cessna, it's low cost of operation, its sportiness, its build quality, strength and reliability, etc, and I'm hooked. I'd like to upgrade to something roomier and faster than a 40 but the safety stats keep pulling me back. If you must crash or make a serious error, why not have a 3-4 times better chance of living through it with a Diamond compared to anything else.

I'm later to the party than a lot of you but I don't feel orphaned by Diamond. I know the company struggled and nearly went under during that horrible recession, and Mr Dreis personally backed small diesels rather than avgas engines because he lives in Europe with sky high avgas prices, but Diamond is alive and well with one of the world's best GA platforms. Let's celebrate that.
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Re: Training market: Diamond or Cirrus?

Post by krellis »

And yet another missed opportunity by Diamond - http://www.sltrib.com/home/5346697-155/ ... ts-partner
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Re: Training market: Diamond or Cirrus?

Post by rwtucker »

krellis wrote:And yet another missed opportunity by Diamond - http://www.sltrib.com/home/5346697-155/ ... ts-partner
Agreed. I don't know the details but these kinds of sales reflect a significant and well-managed outbound sales department. They are not the result of what appears to be Diamond's build it better and they will come approach.

In so many areas of commerce, I have been somewhat disappointed to observe that better marketing, lead generation, and sales beats better products.

On the other hand, I have always thought that the hyper-forgiving nature of the DA40 makes is a poor choice for a training aircraft. It will tolerate sloppy control inputs while low and slow that might kill you in a Cirrus. Perhaps Diamond did the kids at Utah a favor. (I am aware of the Diamond fatality in Utah.)
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Re: Training market: Diamond or Cirrus?

Post by Colin »

I think the DA42 is a great training platform for air carrier crews. I am not sure I would use the DA40.
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Re: Training market: Diamond or Cirrus?

Post by Lou »

rwtucker wrote:On the other hand, I have always thought that the hyper-forgiving nature of the DA40 makes is a poor choice for a training aircraft.
This reminds me of what was said about the definitive trainer of all time, the Tiger Moth: it was an easy aircraft to fly, but a difficult aircraft to fly well.
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Re: Training market: Diamond or Cirrus?

Post by Gearle »

1. The diamond DA 40 is spin certified & the Cirrus is not
2. See point number one.
3. The G1000 was perfected on the Diamond platform as it was its first volume production aircraft installation.
4. Business owners rarely understand or espouse a product's technical excellence. If the above about Cirrus is true, there are doing a better job selling than Diamond is unfortunately.

To the Diamond executives (Fully knowing this will never make it to them) : please learn the lesson of Apple from the 1980s, when they understood that if you get to the children while they're in school with your product, they become LIFELONG purchasers of your products. This is why I own a DA40 180 after having spent much of my private training time in a DA20 10 years ago.

The funniest thing my instructor said was "he didn't like the diamond DA20 because it was difficult to land; it wanted to keep flying". Personally he couldn't have said anything more safety oriented to me, ever. Sold.

And it wasn't difficult, he just wasn't that patient :)
QED
H60 pilot

Re: Training market: Diamond or Cirrus?

Post by H60 pilot »

I might disagree with a couple of your points:

1) The DA40 is not spin certified, or so my AFM states in chapter 2.9, operating limitations.
3) The 40 might have been the G1000 release platform, but what I've experienced first hand and subsequently read on this forum suggests the package has been little improved since Diamond's adoption.

But I too find an aircraft's propensity to fly, while hemorrhaging airspeed no less, a fine aerodynamic quality.

And I too hope Diamond Canada's new management has the vision enough to release a DA40 version 2.0.
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