DA42

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CFIDave
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Re: DA42

Post by CFIDave »

Kai wrote:Needless to say that also the wiring and electronic ignition on an aircraft Diesel engine are different than on a car.
A diesel engine with electronic ignition? :scratch: :)

(I agree that the computers and wiring differ on aircraft vs. auto diesels, if that's what you really meant.)
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Rwatters23

Re: DA42

Post by Rwatters23 »

I didn't say electronic ignition. I said electronic fault; that particular fault caused a complete shutdown of the car while driving on the freeway, necessitating a flatbed tow to the dealership. The point I was making, perhaps not artfully is that engines fail; that's why we have warranties.

I was shocked that Diamomd, a company with not a very good customer service record,(eg The Thielert saga where they walked away from their entire da42 customer base) would create its own new adaptation of a mercedes engine and then warrant it for only two years. Continental used to offer a five year warranty on its platinum engines (don't know if they do anymore). I'm pretty sure I won't be taking a bet on a new Diesel engine that's only warranted for two years.
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Re: DA42

Post by CFIDave »

Rwatters23: My comment about electronic ignition was not directed at you, which is why I quoted Kai in my comment above.

Two years is the standard aircraft warranty for all GA aircraft manufacturers including Cessna, Cirrus, Beechcraft, Diamond, etc.

But unlike automobiles, all new aircraft come with separate warranties provided directly by their engine and avionics manufacturers (Garmin G1000 is 2 years, Lycoming is 2 years, Austro Engines is 2 years). Diamond, which did stand behind its DA42 airframe warranty, was not legally responsible for Thielert engine warranties back in 2008 when Thielert unfortunately went bankrupt. There were owners of Thielert-powered DA42s from that era who believed otherwise and sued Diamond (thus far unsuccessfully, some of these lawsuits may still be pending).

The two-year warranty on the Austro diesel engines on our 2013 DA42 has expired, yet I feel just as confident (if not more so) that they won't fail as when I flew behind our 2008 DA40 with "tried and true" Lycoming engines. Austro AE300 engines out in the field have performed so well that the TBO has been extended from 1000 to 1800 hours with an even higher 2000+ hour TBO expected. Gearbox inspections that used to be needed at 300 hours are now 600 hours; the only engine component to be replaced before TBO is the high pressure fuel pump at 600 hours. Austro has even turned up the turbo boost via software on the same hardware (for AE330 diesels on the DA62) to produce 180 hp instead of the original 168 hp. Maximum continuous operation that used to be 92% of 168 hp on the DA42 is now 95% of 180 hp on the DA62.
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Re: DA42

Post by Guest »

I think you're wrong there. You can still get a five year warranty on a continental platinum engine. Why would I bet on a two year warranty from Diamond, a company that famously has walked away from customers before on the Theilert nightmare? I do not predict success in the North American market for the DA 42 or 62 unless Diamond is willing to assure new customers that it will stand behind a new product (that is starting out with a ridiculously short TBO). They should offer a nice year warranty or at leas the ability to extend the warranty for five years with payment of an additional premium.
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Re: DA42

Post by CFIDave »

Anonymous "Guest" above:
If you think I'm wrong, please be specific about which of my statements above is in error.

I never said anything about Continental's optional 5-year platinum engine warranty; I said that the standard warranty for major aircraft components like engines and avionics is 2 years, and that these component warranties have always been separate from aircraft manufacturer warranties that apply to airframes. As an example, Diamond did not "walk away from customers before on the Thielert nightmare" -- they had no legal obligation to honor Thielert's engine warranty that was totally separate from Diamond's airframe warranty on the DA42.
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Re: DA42

Post by Kai »

Dave, when I buy a DA42 I am not aware that I buy an airframe plus some engines. In fact the legislation in most EU countries requires the seller AND the manufacturer to give a guarantee and the customer can freely chose to claim it from either one. I have a lot of sympathy with the DA42 customers who felt cheated on by Diamond.

Btw, there is a system to their madness or how can you explain that the customers who made a downpayment to the DJet did not get it refunded?

I agree with you though that the anonymous poster should at least reveal his identity when posting aggressive opinions towards DAI or other members.
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Re: DA42

Post by Tommy »

I agree with Dave. When you buy a DA42 or any other plane for that matter, you are provided with a whole suitcase full of manuals and paperwork that clearly spells out warranty responsibility. It's up to the owner to read and understand everything. To burden the airframe manufacturer with the responsibility of warranting major components that are not only manufactured outside the airframe manufacturer, but, under no control of the manufacturer is a bit of a stretch. Reality checks in when money runs out.
Who would you rather have go out of business if you owned a DA42, the engine manufacturer or Diamond?
Somebodies going to go out. There are no bottomless pits of money as some may believe.
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Re: DA42

Post by Kai »

Tommy, there are insurances for the risk that suppliers of installed components goes out of business.

When you buy a Dell computer which installs faulty Nvidia graphic cards, would you claim the guarantee from Dell, Nvidia or the seller? Would you accept that Dell tells you that Nvidia produces their very own graphic cards and Dell just bought the component without any influence to the production process?
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Re: DA42

Post by Tommy »

I guess it just depends on how you are structured as a company regarding warranty work, which side of the fence your on. That being said, it is still incumbent on the owner to know and understand all facets of their airplane. It's a lot, I know, however, the OEM can't make you read what you are supposed to read. They can only provide it.
How many Power Flow exhausts have failed not because they are defective but because the owner failed to maintain it properly. Read your literature, ask a lot of questions and find a good AP. Short rant.
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Re: DA42

Post by CFIDave »

Kai wrote:When you buy a Dell computer which installs faulty Nvidia graphic cards, would you claim the guarantee from Dell, Nvidia or the seller? Would you accept that Dell tells you that Nvidia produces their very own graphic cards and Dell just bought the component without any influence to the production process?
This analogy to aircraft would apply ONLY if at the time you bought a Dell computer, a separate warranty was provided for the Nvidia graphic cards. That's not the case; Dell provides the warranty for everything.

I agree that new aircraft sales are unusual in that major aircraft components (e.g., engines, avionics) are separately warrantied by the component manufacturers, not by the airframe manufacturer. You don't buy a new car or computer that way (although new cars come with separate tire warranties provided by the tire manufacturer), so why do aircraft manufacturers do this?

I'm guessing it may have something to do with the small number of GA planes built per year: only about 1000 certified piston fixed-wing aircraft, all hand-built by relatively small "boutique" manufacturers. That number is multiple orders of magnitude different from Dell Computers or just about any car manufacturer, and it makes it difficult for these small aircraft manufacturers to afford (or financially justify) the in-house expertise necessary for warranty support on something as complex as an engine or G1000 avionics suite. Instead, warranty support is provided directly by the original engine or avionics manufacturer with the expertise.
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