DA40, ice, and some self-doubt

Open for questions of visitors of DAN. Posts of our guests are on moderation queue.

Moderators: Rick, Lance Murray

RDWRER

DA40, ice, and some self-doubt

Post by RDWRER »

I was/am planning on making offers on a da40 xls this weekend.

However, I'm starting to experience some doubt. This is a plane I want to have for the next 10 years as an IFR capable cross-country cruiser and the absence of ice protection is giving me some pause and all of sudden the sr22 has gone from looking silly to looking pretty nice. I live in central USA but may be in the northeast in a few years.

I suppose my question is how big of a deal is the absence of ice protection (FIKI or just protection of any kind) and should it be enough to get me to consider a sr22? No mission will be time critical and any type of flight delay or cancellation would just be unfortunate.

Thanks!
User avatar
Colin
5 Diamonds Member
5 Diamonds Member
Posts: 2006
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2010 8:37 pm
First Name: Colin
Aircraft Type: DA42
Aircraft Registration: N972RD
Airports: KFHR
Has thanked: 319 times
Been thanked: 527 times

Re: DA40, ice, and some self-doubt

Post by Colin »

I have encountered very light icing in my DA40 twice. I didn't like it. I have read some stories about people encountering ice in their FIKI SR-22s. I can tell I wouldn't like that either. If there's ice or thunderstorms I want nothing to do with it and I'll be here on the ground.

You *might* see me up there if I was in a DA42 with the FIKI stuff. Even then I think you are taking a tremendous risk, since everything about icing is unknown and, as you say, your flights are not time critical. There's an NTSB report of a fellow in his TBM 750 near Atlantic City getting the plane iced up on the climb before it kills him and his passengers.

The DA40 has a critical component to mitigate those risks: the pilot. If I see ice I get out immediately, or as near to immediate as I can. I was within forty seconds of declaring an emergency the last time and that was with an eighth of an inch visible on the leading edge.

1. There's only the ice you can see. What's happening on the tail?

2. Ice forms in all sorts of wonderful, random ways (ask my niece about Frozen), which means its effect on your airfoils is entirely unpredictable.

3. Predictions for conditions aloft are not perfect. They can say, "Some icing from 8,000 to 10,000" and it could turn out to be "the worst icing I have seen in fifty years of flying," which is what a Citation captain said in the NTSB report about the TBM 750.

I watched the presentation of one of the Klapmeiers describe the FIKI system when they announced one of the big upgrades. Even he was pretty careful about saying you could fly through icing conditions with it.
Colin Summers, PP Multi-Engine IFR, ~3,000hrs
colin@mightycheese.com * send email rather than PM
http://www.flyingsummers.com
N972RD DA42 G1000 2.0 s/n 42.AC100 (sold!)
N971RD DA40 G1000 s/n 40.508 (traded)
User avatar
Steve
5 Diamonds Member
5 Diamonds Member
Posts: 1953
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2010 1:23 am
First Name: Steve
Aircraft Type: DA40
Aircraft Registration: N432SC
Airports: 1T7
Has thanked: 81 times
Been thanked: 493 times

Re: DA40, ice, and some self-doubt

Post by Steve »

Same here. I don't want to be anywhere near ice. No way. I've had two instances of extremely light ice on my aircraft in the past 14 years (1/16" on wing leading edges). I immediately got out of those conditions in both cases. I don't get paid to fly in that stuff, so I don't do it!

Steve
Guest

Re: DA40, ice, and some self-doubt

Post by Guest »

I have owned both of these planes. You can't really compare a DA40 to an SR22. The SR22 is much more capable in terms of speed and range and so many more factors should go into choosing one versus the other aside from ice protection. You can compare the DA40 to the SR20. I did and chose the DA40. Also, to be legal you need FIKI not just TKS. With just TKS, you really won't gain any more utility or if you do you will be taking way more risk.

The FIKI system in the Cirrus works very well. I never cruised in icing conditions but I live in the Rockies and icing exists twelve months a year so I made use of the FIKI system to get above or below a layer.

I picked up ice in the DA40 once and I quickly came to the conclusion that you need a FIKI bird, and one certified under the recent higher standards, to fly in sub freezing moisture. Anything less and you really need to avoid it or have a bullet proof out.
User avatar
CFIDave
5 Diamonds Member
5 Diamonds Member
Posts: 2678
Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:40 pm
First Name: Dave
Aircraft Type: OTHER
Aircraft Registration: N333GX
Airports: KJYO Leesburg VA
Has thanked: 231 times
Been thanked: 1473 times

Re: DA40, ice, and some self-doubt

Post by CFIDave »

Back when I owned a DA40 I was sufficiently "scared" of icing that I would not fly in ANY clouds (visible moisture) when temps were below freezing.

However now I've had the opportunity to experience ice multiple times in our DA42 (w/FIKI TKS), it's generally a non-event. Despite the ability to turn on the TKS system, in all cases I was able to get out of the icing conditions long before flight safety became an issue, or before I felt that having the TKS system would have been necessary. I've learned that most clouds in temps below freezing don't contain ice, and that forecast icing rarely occurs.

Icing is usually located near cloud tops, and the icing layer rarely exceeds 4000 feet -- it's usually less. So the idea is never to stick around in icing conditions. Either immediately descend to warmer air or climb above the cloud tops into the bright sunshine (admittedly easier to do in a DA42 with turbocharged engines). I have occasionally had to be forceful/persistent with ATC to get permission to change altitudes, but never had to declare an emergency.

Don't get me wrong, there are certainly conditions to be avoided such as being forced to fly an approach to landing in icing conditions that extend all the way to the ground, or when SLD icing has been reported. But with a modicum of pre-flight planning you should be able to avoid such situations, particularly if you have the flexibility to choose when and where you fly and are not forced to stick to a rigorous schedule like charter or airline flights.

While icing demands respect, pilots have been safely flying planes without de-icing systems in the wintertime for years.
Epic Aircraft E1000 GX
Former DA40XLS, DA42-VI, and DA62 owner
ATP, CFI, CFI-I, MEI
User avatar
carym
5 Diamonds Member
5 Diamonds Member
Posts: 1021
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2010 5:00 pm
First Name: cary
Aircraft Type: DA42
Aircraft Registration: N336TS
Airports: KTYQ
Has thanked: 37 times
Been thanked: 83 times

Re: DA40, ice, and some self-doubt

Post by carym »

Dave (et al),
It doesn't look like I can quote, so I'll just add some info about icing. I have had way too many encounters with icing. In my non-deiced C310 it was never a problem because having 2 O-470 engines gave enough power to handle the circumstances in MN until: descending into the clouds on Jan 2 past the FAF and only the clouds could not have been more than 2000 feet thick, I broke out with so much ice on the airframe that I could barely maintain altitude at MDA with full power, and because of the winds I had to circle to land. That is when I decided I had to have a FIKI airplane.

With my FIKI DA42 I have been in ice many times in both MN and IN, as well as in Canada returning from Alaska. Most of the time it was a non-event. However, once (on an Angel Flight mission) while flying in the clouds I encountered enough ice that it was flinging off the props and banging into the fuselage with enough force to shake the plane. Icing was not predicted but it occurred. I was in cruise at my assigned altitude and I tried contacting Dayton approach 3 times to ask for an altitude change. They did not answer. Finally, on the 4th attempt I got them but they refused to give me an altitude change, so I used the e-word and was able to descend enough to get out of the rapid ice accumulation. When I landed in Columbus OH I still had over an inch of ice on the unprotected surfaces, and some ice on the protected surfaces despite the glycol.

Most of the time icing is a non-event. But when it is a real event it can be way too scary. Please, avoid getting into icing conditions because the outcome is sometimes unpredictable. A FIKI plane may not help when you really need it.
Cary
DA42.AC036 (returned)
S35 (1964 V-tail Bonanza)
Alaska adventure: http://mariashflying.tumblr.com
User avatar
robert63
3 Diamonds Member
3 Diamonds Member
Posts: 152
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2014 8:53 am
First Name: Robert
Aircraft Type: DA42NG
Aircraft Registration: OE-FAR
Airports: LOWL
Has thanked: 14 times
Been thanked: 24 times

Re: DA40, ice, and some self-doubt

Post by robert63 »

carym wrote:Dave (et al),
A FIKI plane may not help when you really need it.
The machine that can cope with all atmospheric conditions on our planet still has to be invented. Icing can get also large and powerful aircraft down => https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_prote ... m#See_also

Once you have your PPL you can fly around, but not into clouds and not at night. Any aircraft can do this, and the limitation of what you can do is more on the pilot as on the aircraft.
But this limitation is really huge. In Central Europe you have to cancel more than half of all your planned flights due to weather conditions. If you want to travel for business or with family and friends this gets extremely annoying after a while.
Once you are instrument rated you can fly into clouds and during night. Then the limitation is not so much on the pilot, but more on the aircraft.
This means that you have to know and understand the capabilities of your machine, the atmospheric phenomena and also your own limitation. It is a huge step. However, the unexpected may occur any time.
As a pilot I love to have as many options as possible. If I experience icing I can switch deicing on. If I have oxygen or a pressurized aircraft I can climb out of the icing. Or I have so much power that I can climb through the icing fast enough. If I run out of options I'm in trouble.
My total flight time during the last 12 months is 169 hours of which 151 was IFR and 16 hours during night, all with 75 flights.
All flights were on schedule, planned weeks and months ahead. No flight had to be cancelled or postponed, and it was in every month of the year in Central Europe.
This proves the DA42 a real all-weather aircraft. Oxygen, weather-radar, stormscope, satellite weather, FIKI seems to offer sufficient options to do this safely. But still the unexpected may come and the options may not be sufficient. A risk remains.
As a pilot you have to make decisions, you cannot just sit things out. I think this is a good training also for the rest of your life. You can always turn around, and 2-3 minutes later you are safe again. But waiting for 15 minutes and hoping for improvement may be too long.
I think it depends a lot on yourself, your knowledge and capabilities plus the risk you are ready to accept.
User avatar
Robin
4 Diamonds Member
4 Diamonds Member
Posts: 456
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2010 2:28 am
First Name: Robin
Aircraft Type: DA40
Aircraft Registration: VH-JRZ
Airports: YMPC POINT COOK, MELBOURNE
Has thanked: 25 times
Been thanked: 11 times

Re: DA40, ice, and some self-doubt

Post by Robin »

Hello
Have sold my DA 40, just bought a Cirrus. One of things I have learnt is that FIKI allows you climb up above the icing layer or descent down through it. You cannot cruise in it, except for a short time.
Your levels of deice fluids are almost as important as your fuel levels.
I now look even more closely at the met forecasts. Can I climb above the clouds? How long will I need to cruise in the freezing clouds? Will I hit turbulence?
Safe flying
Robin
Robin
DA-40XLS 40.1078
VH-JRZ, Australia
Antoine
5 Diamonds Member
5 Diamonds Member
Posts: 2043
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2010 11:00 pm
First Name: Antoine
Aircraft Type: OTHER
Aircraft Registration: N121AG
Airports: LSGG
Has thanked: 87 times
Been thanked: 220 times

Re: DA40, ice, and some self-doubt

Post by Antoine »

Hi Robin
Congratulations on your purchase. I would love to hear more from you regarding the difference in the fun factor. I have been looking at Cirrus (Cirri? Cirruses?) for years and every time it feels like trading in a sports car for a van. Can you comment?
I have also looked at DA42, but the perspective of having twice as many things that can go wrong and finding a hangar that can fit the enormous wingspan put me off so far, not to mention DAI's way of treating DA42 customers.
User avatar
rwtucker
5 Diamonds Member
5 Diamonds Member
Posts: 1283
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:24 pm
First Name: Rob
Aircraft Type: DA40
Aircraft Registration: N831BA
Airports: KFFZ KEUL
Has thanked: 100 times
Been thanked: 110 times

Re: DA40, ice, and some self-doubt

Post by rwtucker »

Antoine, You and I seem to be of similar minds on this issue. I'm still of the opinion that a little less weight (carbon tail), a little more HP (high compression heads, etc.), and your NLG would transform the DA40 into my ideal personal flying machine. Nothing hits every potential mission but this would hit all but the ones I'm willing to forgo without any great sense of loss.

Caerus was a Greek god so probably not Cirri :scratch: Cirroi (Caeroi) maybe? What the hell . . . just stick an 's' on it.
Post Reply