2.0s in da42 TDi

[CFIDave]

What do you think?

The critical altitude for the latest Austro AE-300 engine and software is actually 11,500 feet (rather than 10,500 feet) based on a video presentation by an Austro Engine marketing manager (see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRL-2033lok), but more importantly, what's in the DA42-VI AFM/POH and what I've observed when flying at altitude.

In particular, the DA42-VI AFM shows the plane able to make 92% power at 16,000 feet (and 85% power at 18,000 feet), and I've been able to confirm this in flight. 92% of 168 hp is 155 hp, whereas your graph appears to show only about 145 hp at 16,000 feet. So the Austro hp advantage at higher altitudes is 10 hp better than what's shown in your first graph.

For the power to weight ratio, I'm not sure why you chose 1940 kg for the DA42-VI, since most DA42-VI aircraft (without the very recent weight increase to 1999 kg) have a MTOW of only 1900 kg.

But I still like what you've done.

[Antoine]

Hi Dave thanks for the input and video link.
I have updated the charts according to your own findings.
The difference is huge.

Answer to your question about the flight weight:

I wanted a fair comparison, starting from a standard empty weight and carrying the same load.

Took the empty mass of all planes as stated by DAI (i.e. no extras) and added a reference useful load of 530Kg to take it to the MTOW of the base DA42. The base DA42 weighs in at 1780 Kg at gross.

Of course none of the "real world" planes are that light but we have the same starting point.

The 1940 Kg of the -VI are calculated as follows:

Base empty weight 1410 Kg
Reference useful load: 530 Kg

Regarding the L360, its mission profile and fuel burn are so different that I just assumed an identical MTOW to the base plane.

I find it strange that Austro do not bother to update their marketing material on line. It seems they are not in a particular hurry to acquire third party customers...

This engine is really good above FL100 as the comparison shows.

Again - engines are one side of the equation. I personally value aerodynamics a lot more, and this where the -VI widens the gap.

[ememic99]

Again - engines are one side of the equation. I personally value aerodynamics a lot more, and this where the -VI widens the gap.

TBH I don't see a problem applying aerodynamics changes of -VI to any DA42 - there's an upgrade of TDI to -VI so it's feasible. So probably it's a question of sales if Diamond is interested to apply these upgrades to aircraft with 2.0s engines.

[Antoine]

Yes Emir, it is feasible.
The only way I am aware of to get the aerodynamic upgrades of the -Vi is via Diamond, as part of an upgrade to ... DA42-VI

Here price points from my recent inquiries:

Upgrade to DA42-VI including:
All aerodynamic changes
2'000 Kg MTOW
Improved props
GFC 700 and Yaw Damper

EUR 260'000

Upgrade to 2.0s
Props
GFC700

Approximately € 185'000

Considering that the -VI upgrade includes quite substantial airframe modifications and delivers much better performance in the FL 120 to FL 180 area, it is the clear choice for long range cruisers.
The 2.0s may be a good alternative for "low landers" and people who do not like a canula up their nostrils and do not need the top speed of the -VI. They save 75'000 Euro and get an airplane that will probably be more fun to hand fly.

But as it stands now the operating cost difference is so huge that it should make the Austros win every time... Continental must do something to dramatically reduce the total cost of ownership or they are out in the medium term.

[ememic99]

TBH speed difference is nothing huge - we're talking about 20-30 kts and it's not much.

With some 300k€ for the aircraft and 260k€ for the upgrade you end in price range of turboprop. And there we're talking about real speeds (250+ kts), presurized aircraft (no canulas) and FL250+. But that's completely different game and different experience of flying.

[Antoine]

Agree - turboprop flying is a different game and I really don't like it. At this point I'd rather fly first class in an airliner - just as boring but at least you get pampered and it is OK to drink!

[hkavasch]

just a thought on the Austro's... how sure are we, that they will survive in the long run...

With Continental, the centurions seem to be safe now... investments are being made... 6 cylinder under development... the 2.0s showing up in other planes... Unlikely that continental will drop this engine...

Much different for the Austro... how much 4 cylinder engines do they produce each year? 100? 200?... Is this enough to keep it running? Also more competetiors are gearing up... EPS, SMA, DeltaHawk...

Is there enough market for Continental Centurion, EPS, SMA, DeltaHaw and Austro? Who will still be around in 5 years? The centurion seems to be a safe bet here... I would think twice, before I'd spent 200K in such a small niche player... We all know how it feels to fly with an engine "under chapter 11"...

[CFIDave]

just a thought on the Austro's... how sure are we, that they will survive in the long run...

While nothing in life is certain, Austro has a few things going for them:
1. It's privately owned by the same Dries family that owns Diamond, so there are some pretty "deep pockets" with substantial assets standing behind the company.
2. The AE300 uses an off-the-shelf Mercedes OMS640 car engine of which more than 1 million have been built. Compare this to (formerly) Thielert engines where Continental must create the engine block, heads, etc. from scratch with its own expensive production tooling. Austro thus requires a much smaller operation with less fixed overhead and a cost of production that scales to accommodate both small and large production rates.
3. Austro engines are likely being produced and shipped at a greater rate than Continental (formerly Thielert) diesel engines. The Wiener Neustadt Diamond factory continues to run at maximum capacity producing Austro-powered DA40 NG/Tundra and DA42 NG/-VI/MPP models. To help out, the Canadian Diamond factory is shipping DA40 airframe "kits" to Austria to meet the demand for Austro-powered aircraft. There's still at least a 6-month wait if you were to place an order today for a new DA42; the Austro-powered DA42 is currently the world's best selling piston twin.
4. Austro is continuing to invest in the future, e.g., development of a diesel V8 intended to be used for Diamond's upcoming twin passenger aircraft is proceeding nicely. There is also the new more-powerful 180-hp version of the AE300 upon which the DA62 depends, etc.

I'm not too worried...

[Aart]

Antoine,
The prices you mentioned are exclusive of VAT?

[ememic99]

Antoine,
The prices you mentioned are exclusive of VAT?

According to what I know, yes - without VAT.