Eggs at 15,500 and oxygen saturation
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- rwtucker
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Eggs at 15,500 and oxygen saturation
This may qualify as the weirdest or dumbest question of 2014 but here goes.
My wife and I are spending an extended time in Arizona. She left early, driving, with one of the two dogs. I'm attending to unfinished business, then flying down with the other dog and personal effects. She wants me to bring the perishable food when I come.
I know the hypothetical case for most things but has anyone had any practical experience transporting pressure sensitive foods -- eggs come to mind -- well above 8,500 MSL? If so, how did you do it and would you do it again? I've been checking on winds daily to get an average and my software says there is a good chance that my best altitude will be 14,500 - 15,500 with O2.
My wife and I are spending an extended time in Arizona. She left early, driving, with one of the two dogs. I'm attending to unfinished business, then flying down with the other dog and personal effects. She wants me to bring the perishable food when I come.
I know the hypothetical case for most things but has anyone had any practical experience transporting pressure sensitive foods -- eggs come to mind -- well above 8,500 MSL? If so, how did you do it and would you do it again? I've been checking on winds daily to get an average and my software says there is a good chance that my best altitude will be 14,500 - 15,500 with O2.
- CFIDave
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Re: Eggs at 15,500
Just make sure the eggs are from specially-bred chickens raised high in the Peruvian Andes...
Seriously I'm not sure about eggs, but beware of potato chip bags. We were hauling a couple big bags of chips to a fly-in party in the back of our DA40, and they scared the crap out of me when they exploded at 7000 feet.
Seriously I'm not sure about eggs, but beware of potato chip bags. We were hauling a couple big bags of chips to a fly-in party in the back of our DA40, and they scared the crap out of me when they exploded at 7000 feet.
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Former DA40XLS, DA42-VI, and DA62 owner
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- carym
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Re: Eggs at 15,500
I don't know about eggs, but I would worry about dog hypoxia, especially if the dog is older. On all my PilotNPaws flights I rarely go above 8000. I have been reluctant to take my own dogs on a long X-country because I often fly in the mid to upper teens if winds are favorable.
Let us know how it goes.
Let us know how it goes.
Cary
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Re: Eggs at 15,500
Dave:
I am with Cary on this one.
Before worrying about unborn chicken, I would ask myself how long the poor dog will survive hypoxia.
Consider yourself lucky that dogs cannot read this forum yet! - but knowing Kai and his affinity to these animals, I wouldn't bet that it won't ever happen.
Therefore, may I suggest you delete the thread and then bark public apologies for the sake of preserving pilot-dog friendship?
I am with Cary on this one.
Before worrying about unborn chicken, I would ask myself how long the poor dog will survive hypoxia.
Consider yourself lucky that dogs cannot read this forum yet! - but knowing Kai and his affinity to these animals, I wouldn't bet that it won't ever happen.
Therefore, may I suggest you delete the thread and then bark public apologies for the sake of preserving pilot-dog friendship?
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Re: Eggs at 15,500
Dog is your co-pilot?
Pay with eggs. Problem solved.
Pay with eggs. Problem solved.
Colin Summers, PP Multi-Engine IFR, ~3,000hrs
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- rwtucker
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Re: Eggs at 15,500
I'm seeing unwarranted assumptions about dog O2, or the lack thereof, but I am now well informed about exploding chip bags. Dumping those
Looks like I'll have to hatch my own egg solution (err . . . omelet).
Looks like I'll have to hatch my own egg solution (err . . . omelet).
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Re: Eggs at 15,500
Someone told me that 15,500 ft is dangerous for humans if they are old, untrained or performing a difficult task, such as flying. And for dogs it is dangerous, too, just they don't pilot the plane. Really hard to get a reasonable answer, but my dog was fine at those altitudes. For the sake of the dog, will do future testing with Antoine
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Re: Eggs at 15,500
Grrrrrrrrrrrr!!! I'll pee all over your black Alcantara!
(and on a more serious note - in my case, O2 is beneficial as low as 9000 ft and I would never ever go above 12K DA for more than 2-3 minutes without it. I do have an oxymeter on board and what I see is just scary.
I have learnt to breathe consciously, and this fixes the saturation level but I understand this workaround also has its own potential issues.
Was it you Jean who explained this some time ago?
(and on a more serious note - in my case, O2 is beneficial as low as 9000 ft and I would never ever go above 12K DA for more than 2-3 minutes without it. I do have an oxymeter on board and what I see is just scary.
I have learnt to breathe consciously, and this fixes the saturation level but I understand this workaround also has its own potential issues.
Was it you Jean who explained this some time ago?
- carym
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Re: Eggs at 15,500
I am beginning to get a little (maybe a lot) off topic here, so Kai if you think this inappropriate please delete. Here is an oversimplified explanation as to why "breathing consciously" will increase the oxygen saturation (and is not a good thing).Antoine wrote: (and on a more serious note - in my case, O2 is beneficial as low as 9000 ft and I would never ever go above 12K DA for more than 2-3 minutes without it. I do have an oxymeter on board and what I see is just scary.
I have learnt to breathe consciously, and this fixes the saturation level but I understand this workaround also has its own potential issues.
Was it you Jean who explained this some time ago?
The 2 important gases in our system are oxygen and carbon dioxide. The amount of gas dissolved in our blood is dependent upon the atmospheric pressure, so as we climb the pressure decreases and the amount of oxygen available will decrease. This is relatively obvious. The carbon dioxide in our system is dependent upon metabolism and not on atmoshperic gases. As we climb, we still produce the same amount of carbon dioxide (or even more if anxious enough to raise metabolism). Thus, at 10000 feet we have lower amounts of oxygen in the blood but the same amount of carbon dioxide.
The amount of carbon dioxide in our blood is regulated by breathing. If we breath less, the carbon dioxide builds up changing the blood pH. The change in pH is sensed by the brain and leads to subconscious increase in the rate of breathing. This is the primary method of controlling the rate of breathing, not a fall in oxygen content! Because we produce a fixed amount of carbon dioxide, the blood content of carbon dioxide doesn't change with altitude, but the total amount of gas in the blood is based on atmospheric pressure. Therefore, at a given atmospheric pressure if you "over breath" (known as hyperventilation) you will breathe off more carbon dioxide and "make room" for more oxygen. The consequence of breathing off more carbon dioxide is that it will raise your blood pH which lowers your serum ionized calcium level. Normal serum ionized calcium is critical for muscle activity, nerve activity, and even brain activity. With hyperventilation people are known to develop muscle cramps, numbness and tingling in extremities, and in the extreme can lose consciousness and seize.
The solution to this is to increase the relative content of oxygen that you take in (i.e., wear an oxygen cannula) rather than hyperventilate to increase your oxygen saturation.
Cary
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- rwtucker
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Re: Eggs at 15,500
Maybe I'll rename the thread so we're not off topic.
First blush, the only thing I would add to Cary's comments is that there are important individual differences which, and rightly so, would be too complex for the FAA to embed in policy.
One difference worth mentioning is the MSL altitude to which your physiology has accommodated.
I have lived at higher altitudes for most of my life. For the last five years, I have lived at 5,500 MSL and exercise up to 8.500 MSL. My son (also a pilot) has lived most of his adult life near sea level. Because it is often necessary for me to fly at 11,500 MSL to provide the 2,000 ft. AGL clearance I prefer in high mountain winds, I always carry an oximeter and generally have O2 on board. My son and I have seen interesting differences when we have flown together. While his O2 saturation readings begin dropping at 7,500 MSL, mine don't show much change until 12,500 MSL and even then they are in the mid-90's. My son also reports common symptoms like headache, irritability, yawning, etc.
So, I add O2 when required by the FAA regs but I have never experienced any symptoms from flying for four hours without O2 at 11,500. There is more to this but my main point is that a pilot's acclimated MSL altitude is a factor.
It would be interesting to hear from others who have lived at least a few years at high altitude (it takes about that long for all factors to adapt) about their altitude tolerance.
On a related note: pulse oximeters -- even the good ones and not all are good -- do not offer information about hemoglobin concentration, cardiac output, efficiency of oxygen delivery to the tissues, oxygen consumption, sufficiency of oxygenation, and other factors that are the real drivers of some of the underlying safety issues. They do give you a decent estimate of changes in your oxygen saturation that are almost certainly a decent estimate of changes in the factor that is actually important, pulmonary arterial saturation which, in turn, determines how well you brain and nervous system will function in relation to optimum parameters. My recommendation is to buy a oximeter that comes with a lab calibration sheet. These days, most of them are probably OK but you want one that has been individually tested.
P.S. My dog has always lived at 5,500 MSL and he arrives even fresher than I do, probably because he sleeps until he feels the wheels on touchdown.
First blush, the only thing I would add to Cary's comments is that there are important individual differences which, and rightly so, would be too complex for the FAA to embed in policy.
One difference worth mentioning is the MSL altitude to which your physiology has accommodated.
I have lived at higher altitudes for most of my life. For the last five years, I have lived at 5,500 MSL and exercise up to 8.500 MSL. My son (also a pilot) has lived most of his adult life near sea level. Because it is often necessary for me to fly at 11,500 MSL to provide the 2,000 ft. AGL clearance I prefer in high mountain winds, I always carry an oximeter and generally have O2 on board. My son and I have seen interesting differences when we have flown together. While his O2 saturation readings begin dropping at 7,500 MSL, mine don't show much change until 12,500 MSL and even then they are in the mid-90's. My son also reports common symptoms like headache, irritability, yawning, etc.
So, I add O2 when required by the FAA regs but I have never experienced any symptoms from flying for four hours without O2 at 11,500. There is more to this but my main point is that a pilot's acclimated MSL altitude is a factor.
It would be interesting to hear from others who have lived at least a few years at high altitude (it takes about that long for all factors to adapt) about their altitude tolerance.
On a related note: pulse oximeters -- even the good ones and not all are good -- do not offer information about hemoglobin concentration, cardiac output, efficiency of oxygen delivery to the tissues, oxygen consumption, sufficiency of oxygenation, and other factors that are the real drivers of some of the underlying safety issues. They do give you a decent estimate of changes in your oxygen saturation that are almost certainly a decent estimate of changes in the factor that is actually important, pulmonary arterial saturation which, in turn, determines how well you brain and nervous system will function in relation to optimum parameters. My recommendation is to buy a oximeter that comes with a lab calibration sheet. These days, most of them are probably OK but you want one that has been individually tested.
P.S. My dog has always lived at 5,500 MSL and he arrives even fresher than I do, probably because he sleeps until he feels the wheels on touchdown.